WEBVTT

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We move on to the second presentation,
which will

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be given by Mr. Francisco Jorge Leira
Castiñeira,

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from the Carlos Tercero University.

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Hey, are you going to talk to us about
the historiographical

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renewal of armed conflicts in the 19th
century, huh?

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Francisco Leira Castiñeira is a professor
at Carlos III University of Madrid.

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After going through different centers,

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in which we highlight the College of
Dublin or Dublin.

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And he has a very specific
characteristic, which is that he

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is a historian with a body of work,
right? We highlight three

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books written by him: Soldiers of Franco,
Forced Recruitment,

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War Experience and Military
Demobilization.

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21st century in the year 2020.

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This book is the result of a prize he won
for his doctoral thesis, eh!

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The success of this text led him to write
The Nobodies of the Spanish War Akal,

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2022.

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A book very well received by the
audience, like the first one, huh?

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And right now he is already working on
the second edition of his latest book,

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Portraits of the Transition, The memory
we hid in the attic,

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published at the beginning of this year
by Editorial Siglo 21.

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Therefore, we are also here.

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Author

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which we can study in itself because

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it has its own audience, because

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it is a successful young historian

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and I also want to, uh, allow me to

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show, uh, my special pride, because,

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mmm, I was a bad teacher of

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Francisco Loira.

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I still remember that paper you handed me
about how wonderful it is, huh?

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In two authors, eh

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eh, which I loved.

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The thing is, he writes very well, he's a

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successful historian, and the only thing
I

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feel for him, as I've told him before, is
a lot

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of envy because I haven't achieved the
same.

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Thank you so much for agreeing to be
here, Francisco.

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And today he is going to talk to us, as I
have already said, about the renewal of

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South Africa, about the armed conflicts
in the 19th century.

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Well, first of all, thank you very much
for the presentation you gave me.

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It has also touched me coming from you,
who as you have said

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has been my teacher and I have to
acknowledge that a great

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teacher and also on a personal level you
have helped me a

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lot in very complicated moments of my
academic career

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which as we have discussed before, is an
obstacle course

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and always having that help from someone
who pushes you,

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not in some way with encouragement yes,
but also with

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a lot of effort, is always appreciated.

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And then, many thanks to the organization
for the invitation.

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It is a pleasure for me to be in this
house and to be able

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to talk about something that touches,
although

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tangentially, on my research, but that

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touches on my research and also a part of
my

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of mine,

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let's say.

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Concerns as a historian, what role can we
play in

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this case towards civil society and the
novel, in this case fiction.

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Both the historical novel in this case,
as well as

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film, theater (which my colleague
mentioned), and

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any other form of media, like comics or
any cultural

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aspect that can disseminate history, seem
fundamental

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to me, and that's more or less what I'm
going to focus

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on, as Israel mentioned. My background is
more in

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the 20th century, which I've studied in
different

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periods, from the Civil War to the
Transition,

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talking about European wars. Well, the
19th century

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isn't exactly my area of ​​study, but
that doesn't

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mean that many of the aspects I've
studied, mainly

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in the field of historiography, don't
apply.

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Are you now thinking about how to
approach the intervention?

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Yes, to talk first about what the vision
is,

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let's say, of the influence of the new

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historiography on armed conflicts or on
what

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is known as WAR, is it within the

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works of the 19th century or vice versa?

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I've decided to do it the other way
around.

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If we analyze it, we all know what the
historiographical process is like.

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We start from the 19th century, in which
there is a history

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deeply linked to the process of
nation-building.

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There we have, then, several fundamental
works,

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such as those of the National Episodes of
Benito

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Pérez Galdós, in which there are several
fundamental

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works on, let's say, war conflicts.

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We are talking about Juan Martín, El

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Empecinado, Gerona about, let's say,

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the sieges in the war of independence,

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the sieges of Zaragoza, let's say March

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19 and May 2 about the uprising of
Aranjuez

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and of and of and of of Madrid,
Trafalgar.

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But I would perhaps highlight one work
which, as you will see, is

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the one that can, let's say, bring us
closer, let's say in this case.

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For me, Benito Pérez Galdós is one of
those

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who has best been able to show in a work
what

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is currently being studied within the

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studies of war, which is one more rebel
and

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a few less friars from the one of '79.

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It is perhaps one of the less fundamental
works, but in

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which he really shows that political
reaction, that

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social violence that appears in later
periods and helps

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to understand that continuity between the
war of

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independence and then the internal
polarization that

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existed in 19th century Spain with the
arrival of Ferdinand VII.

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And I find it interesting because of that

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analysis of violence, which is one of the

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fundamental aspects on which studies of

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violence and war are currently focused,

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because we begin to analyze works such as

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Summa, Summa, the Summa, the one about
the

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Carlist War, who is one of the great,
let's

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say, leaders of the Carlist movement, who

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is later deeply vindicated during the

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Civil War, well, it focuses more on those

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studies, let's say more on those novels,

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let's say more, more classic ones, we can

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cite Oñate and Grand and the great La
Granja

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or La Granja, and which more or less
focus

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within that attempt to build a national

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state in which historiography is also
very much linked.

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So, in the case of Benito Pérez Galdós,
the existing

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historiography at that time, the way of
doing history

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with, let's say, the sample we have and
the work

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that Pérez Galdós did are very, very
related.

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Another author I wanted to mention is
Ramón

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Valle-Inclán, who is one of the great
writers of the 19th century.

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He has the trilogy about the Carlist war
as the glow

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of the bonfire, the gyrfalcons of
yesteryear, the

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Court of Miracles and in this case, any
of the three,

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also approach those two aspects, let's
say, of

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violence, mentalities, moral aspects,
ideological

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aspects that influence a Carlist war and
that I think

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is very, very interesting, because, let's
say, it

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goes a step beyond what was actually
done, within

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what is the more traditional military
history.

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Then there is Pío Baroja with Sala Caín
and the

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adventurer, which here is already, let's
say, a

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vision of a character who carries out,
within the

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context of the War of Independence, a
kind of adventure.

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That is, this idea of ​​war as an
adventure is captured by Pío Baroja in

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many

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of his books, including The Adventurer's
Route, a

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trilogy published at the beginning of the
20th century.

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And I think that in some way it's in tune

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with what was being written.

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Therefore, some of the texts cited by
Benito Pérez

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Galdós, as well as by Ramón Valle-Inclán.

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I think they escape more from that
traditional

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history of the military world that was
written in that context.

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However, we might think that after the,
let's

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say, radical change in the way of doing
history,

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in which other subdisciplines of history
such

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as social history, cultural history, the

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history of mentalities, begin to get
involved

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in the analysis of war contexts, both
analyzing

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the rearguard as well as analyzing the

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battlefront, we might think that it could
have

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had some kind of influence on the new
books.

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And yet, what we find, for example, when
we look

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at one of the most relevant or
best-selling

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authors, or rather, one of the most
important

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figures in contemporary literature,
Arturo

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Pérez Reverte, is that we find historical
novels

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in which he depicts a war that,
curiously, is very

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little related to the type of war he may

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have experienced as a war correspondent.

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I speak as, for example, a day of anger,
which

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is perhaps the best, in which certain
real and

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anonymous characters, well, they go on

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analyzing their, their, their, their,
their

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trajectory during the war, also of

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independence and is possibly the best.

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But there are also many aspects there
that fall

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within the commonplaces of war, that is,
the

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analysis of war as something heroic, as
an

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adventure, as something highly
ideologized

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by the people who work in the conflict,
both

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civil society and people who participate
in

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militias or regular armies, and who fall
into certain commonplaces.

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Cape Trafalgar, published in 2002, is,
let's

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say, follows that idea, even though he
tries

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in some way to approach some of the
novels of

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Benito Pérez Galdós, of his national
episodes.

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I think that really no, they don't even
reach

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the literary quality from the opinion of
a simple

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reader, nor in terms of the subject
matter.

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Therefore, this is, let's say, what we
have today: two people

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who, for me, do have, let's say, a
slightly more open, more

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complete vision, in which politics,
society

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and culture come into play to analyze the
war.

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Similarly, Valle-Inclán, with a more
aesthetic, tragic,

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and symbolic vision of the Carlist Wars,
but rather his

00:12:30.720 --> 00:12:35.440
Baroja trilogy, let's say there are many
more topics such as the

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the idea of ​​the

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of the adventurous man in a war episode
and then as a more

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contemporary author, Pérez Reverte, well,
he falls,

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let's say, into many of those clichés
about those episodes

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of the 20th century, the aforementioned
town, those two days of anger.

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But one cannot speak of the siege of
Cadiz in 1916.

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Then we can cite other authors, such as
María

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Reyes and the thousand names of freedom,
who

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speaks of 1915, that is, let's say, of
that post-war

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period which is one of the aspects that
the new

00:13:18.280 --> 00:13:22.280
historiography on the war, well, is
increasingly

00:13:22.280 --> 00:13:26.280
giving and perhaps is also a little,
let's say,

00:13:26.280 --> 00:13:30.280
more complete, but when it begins to
delve into

00:13:30.280 --> 00:13:34.280
what is, let's say, the warlike aspects
that

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exist, let's say, in those, let's say,
realities

00:13:38.280 --> 00:13:43.240
of those, in those, let's say, topics
that fall at that time.

00:13:43.240 --> 00:13:47.240
It is true that when he analyzes the
post-war period, those

00:13:47.240 --> 00:13:51.240
social, political, and ideological
aspects are a bit broader

00:13:51.240 --> 00:13:55.240
than those of Pérez Reverte. But let's
say, not yet, there is

00:13:55.240 --> 00:13:59.240
not, let's say, for me, a relationship
between what is written

00:13:59.240 --> 00:14:04.480
within the world of history and what is
written within the world of literature.

00:14:04.480 --> 00:14:07.600
And to mention last, uh, Ildefonso

00:14:07.600 --> 00:14:10.600
Falcones with "slave of liberty".

00:14:10.960 --> 00:14:14.960
Perhaps it is a more social story about,
say, the Spanish

00:14:14.960 --> 00:14:18.960
colonial world of the mid-19th century,
in this case in Cuba,

00:14:18.960 --> 00:14:22.800
and in which it speaks of that structural
violence of slavery, social and racial

00:14:22.800 --> 00:14:24.760
conflict.

00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:30.600
And indeed, it broadens that focus on the
violence of the Spanish empire.

00:14:30.880 --> 00:14:34.880
And I think it's one of the most
recommended

00:14:34.880 --> 00:14:40.680
books for people who are more fond of
this, let's say, war literature.

00:14:41.040 --> 00:14:45.040
However, if we analyze, say, this
historiographical

00:14:45.040 --> 00:14:49.040
renewal that is taking place in the
military world,

00:14:49.040 --> 00:14:53.520
well, there really is a substantial
change, huh?

00:14:53.520 --> 00:14:56.800
It began, let's say, with an analysis of
the battles, the

00:14:56.800 --> 00:14:59.800
campaigns, the analysis of the generals,
of the strategies.

00:15:00.120 --> 00:15:04.120
It is very much linked to that, let's
say, to

00:15:04.120 --> 00:15:08.120
that relationship of the context of the
creation

00:15:08.120 --> 00:15:12.120
of nation states in which when they spoke
of the

00:15:12.120 --> 00:15:16.120
generals or even the soldiers, well,
there was

00:15:16.120 --> 00:15:20.120
that ideological idea, that idea of
​​nation

00:15:20.120 --> 00:15:24.120
in all of them, when it is very difficult
that

00:15:24.120 --> 00:15:28.120
all those who were participating in the
war

00:15:28.120 --> 00:15:31.880
conflicts could defend a similar idea.

00:15:32.320 --> 00:15:36.320
And currently, what is being defended and
studied

00:15:36.320 --> 00:15:40.320
is, let's say, a more social, more
cultural, less

00:15:40.320 --> 00:15:43.960
political study, and delving into the
more

00:15:43.960 --> 00:15:46.960
emotional aspects and holistic memory as
well.

00:15:47.280 --> 00:15:51.280
That is, how do we remember the war, what
were the

00:15:51.280 --> 00:15:55.280
consequences of the war in the post-war
period,

00:15:55.280 --> 00:16:00.520
and what remains of the war, let's say,
in the later periods.

00:16:00.760 --> 00:16:04.760
When we analyze, for example, the
post-war period, those

00:16:04.760 --> 00:16:08.760
of the Carlist War that were later used
in Carlist propaganda

00:16:08.760 --> 00:16:12.320
to try to mobilize society in that
context.

00:16:12.520 --> 00:16:16.520
However, these aspects remain, let's say,
a little more,

00:16:16.520 --> 00:16:20.120
they are not reflected as much either in
the literature

00:16:20.120 --> 00:16:23.120
of the time, nor in current literature.

00:16:24.240 --> 00:16:29.600
Possibly also due to public interest, we
cannot forget that.

00:16:30.040 --> 00:16:34.040
However, I believe that analyzing these

00:16:34.040 --> 00:16:38.040
novel aspects within the field of war

00:16:38.040 --> 00:16:42.040
studies, which is the field I work in,

00:16:42.040 --> 00:16:46.040
would give rise to a much more
interesting

00:16:46.040 --> 00:16:50.040
fiction, and that, for example, in the

00:16:50.040 --> 00:16:54.040
case of the civil wars of the 20th
century

00:16:54.040 --> 00:16:58.040
or the world wars of the 20th century,

00:16:58.040 --> 00:17:02.400
it is indeed being incorporated.

00:17:02.400 --> 00:17:06.400
Well, I think, for example, of the world
of cinema, because it's an endless trench

00:17:06.400 --> 00:17:10.000
where repression is discussed, where the
role of a person and how they suffer in

00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:11.800
that context is discussed.

00:17:11.800 --> 00:17:14.800
warlike or more

00:17:14.920 --> 00:17:19.320
in the world wars, as Dunkirk can be an
example.

00:17:19.800 --> 00:17:23.800
In 1916, if I'm not mistaken, which is
Christopher Nolan's

00:17:23.800 --> 00:17:28.800
other film, if I'm not mistaken, he also
analyzes that social aspect.

00:17:28.840 --> 00:17:31.400
Let's go to the Band of Brothers series.

00:17:31.400 --> 00:17:35.400
It is one of the great examples of how
that

00:17:35.400 --> 00:17:39.400
war can be analyzed from a perspective
that

00:17:39.400 --> 00:17:43.400
I think within 19th-century fiction there

00:17:43.400 --> 00:17:47.400
are, let's say, few books that focus on
it

00:17:47.400 --> 00:17:51.640
from such a social and raw perspective.

00:17:52.280 --> 00:17:56.280
I'm talking about, for example, the Thin
Red Line, which

00:17:56.280 --> 00:18:00.280
was published some time ago, and which
is, if I'm not

00:18:00.280 --> 00:18:04.120
mistaken, contemporary with Saving
Private Ryan.

00:18:04.120 --> 00:18:08.120
And they are, let's say, two different
views of

00:18:08.120 --> 00:18:12.120
the same phenomenon, which is the
phenomenon of

00:18:12.120 --> 00:18:16.120
war, in which on the one hand the
emotional aspect

00:18:16.120 --> 00:18:20.120
of a diversity of characters who
participate in

00:18:20.120 --> 00:18:24.120
that context is analyzed, while in the
other

00:18:24.120 --> 00:18:28.600
case, discounting the part of the
Normandy landing.

00:18:28.600 --> 00:18:32.600
Then what we see is the typical story
that

00:18:32.600 --> 00:18:36.600
could be told during the Cold War period

00:18:36.600 --> 00:18:40.600
with deeply, let's say, ideological

00:18:40.600 --> 00:18:44.600
undertones and, let's say, a vindication

00:18:44.600 --> 00:18:48.600
of the Nation based on, in this case, its

00:18:48.600 --> 00:18:52.600
citizens, which to a certain extent is
what

00:18:52.600 --> 00:18:55.840
much of the historiography is based on.

00:18:56.320 --> 00:18:59.560
If we focus on the historiographical
renewal within the military

00:18:59.560 --> 00:19:02.560
field, there are several names that must
be mentioned.

00:19:02.560 --> 00:19:06.560
The first is Michael Howard and his book

00:19:06.560 --> 00:19:10.560
The Case of the World and Another in six,

00:19:10.560 --> 00:19:14.560
and in which he began to talk about how

00:19:14.560 --> 00:19:18.560
war had to illuminate the relationship

00:19:18.560 --> 00:19:22.560
between ideas between men and ideas

00:19:22.560 --> 00:19:26.560
between war and social and other social

00:19:26.560 --> 00:19:31.880
forces and between the present and
historical roots.

00:19:32.280 --> 00:19:36.280
That is, it has a fundamental
methodological and

00:19:36.280 --> 00:19:40.280
intellectual novelty and it departs,
let's say,

00:19:40.280 --> 00:19:44.280
from that, let's say, militaristic,
classical

00:19:44.280 --> 00:19:48.280
position, and tries to focus it within a
much more

00:19:48.280 --> 00:19:52.120
interesting political and social
perspective.

00:19:52.360 --> 00:19:56.360
Perhaps it is one of the least known and
least

00:19:56.360 --> 00:20:02.320
celebrated works within those that
discuss this new military history.

00:20:02.640 --> 00:20:03.920
It's not a term I like.

00:20:03.920 --> 00:20:07.920
I believe that military history has

00:20:07.920 --> 00:20:11.920
objectives and a clear methodology, and

00:20:11.920 --> 00:20:17.680
it is the one that has been implemented
throughout this era.

00:20:17.680 --> 00:20:21.920
And what we have now is, let's say, a
social history of wartime contexts.

00:20:21.920 --> 00:20:25.920
In the same way that there is a social
history of the world of work,

00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:29.920
a social history of the rural world, a
social history of, let's say,

00:20:29.920 --> 00:20:33.120
the world of, uh, the transition or other
periods.

00:20:33.120 --> 00:20:37.120
In other words, we cannot talk about
methodological

00:20:37.120 --> 00:20:41.120
renewals, implementing them in a new
discipline

00:20:41.120 --> 00:20:45.120
that already has, let's say, its own
methodology,

00:20:45.120 --> 00:20:49.120
but rather about social, cultural,
political,

00:20:49.120 --> 00:20:53.120
and ideological contexts, and analyzing
them

00:20:53.120 --> 00:20:56.920
from a new historical methodology.

00:20:56.920 --> 00:21:00.920
In this case, the key book, and the one
in which he

00:21:00.920 --> 00:21:04.920
is most championed, is that of John
Keegan, who

00:21:04.920 --> 00:21:08.920
transformed, from within, the point of
view of

00:21:08.920 --> 00:21:12.920
war in his book on phases of battle and
argued that

00:21:12.920 --> 00:21:16.920
military history, in this case, had to be

00:21:16.920 --> 00:21:20.920
reconstructed for him. This is not an
opinion I

00:21:20.920 --> 00:21:24.920
don't consider from the concrete
experience of

00:21:24.920 --> 00:21:28.920
those who fought, because at the point of
greatest

00:21:28.920 --> 00:21:32.920
danger, that is, on the battlefield,
understanding

00:21:32.920 --> 00:21:36.920
the emotions of those combatants, not so
much from

00:21:36.920 --> 00:21:40.920
a general perspective, but also trying to
do it

00:21:40.920 --> 00:21:44.920
from a much broader perspective. That is,
trying

00:21:44.920 --> 00:21:48.920
to explain what it really meant to fight
in Angkor,

00:21:48.920 --> 00:21:54.800
in Waterloo, in the Zoom, and doing it
from a very broad perspective.

00:21:54.800 --> 00:21:58.800
Let's say that this book by Vatel is the
basis on which many of

00:21:58.800 --> 00:22:02.600
the great new developments in the study
of war are based.

00:22:03.400 --> 00:22:07.400
Huh? Let's say the focus shifted; it

00:22:07.400 --> 00:22:11.400
began to talk about the combatant who

00:22:11.400 --> 00:22:15.400
initially seemed to be that person, uh,

00:22:15.400 --> 00:22:19.400
who left his life behind and in some way,

00:22:19.400 --> 00:22:23.400
well, in a selfless way and for, uh, for

00:22:23.400 --> 00:22:27.400
the nation, at first the 19 appeared and

00:22:27.400 --> 00:22:31.400
then for a specific ideology, they fought

00:22:31.400 --> 00:22:35.400
to the death and began to study, well,

00:22:35.400 --> 00:22:40.800
their doubts, their emotions, their true
ideology.

00:22:40.800 --> 00:22:44.800
To sociologically analyze how the
military

00:22:44.800 --> 00:22:48.800
contingents were composed and, in some
way,

00:22:48.800 --> 00:22:52.800
to study the history of bodies, which is
also

00:22:52.800 --> 00:22:56.680
very much within gender studies, to study

00:22:56.680 --> 00:22:59.680
fear, which is very important.

00:22:59.760 --> 00:23:03.760
It is essential to introduce part of the
methodology of

00:23:03.760 --> 00:23:07.760
social psychology, the role of noise,
which is something

00:23:07.760 --> 00:23:12.880
I have analyzed while working with a
colleague who is a PhD in psychology.

00:23:13.200 --> 00:23:17.200
As the noise then psychologically affects

00:23:17.200 --> 00:23:21.200
all ex-combatants, the disorientation

00:23:21.200 --> 00:23:25.200
within the battle context, as well as
after

00:23:25.200 --> 00:23:29.200
the battle context, the proximity of
death,

00:23:29.200 --> 00:23:33.200
the physical experience of combat, and

00:23:33.200 --> 00:23:37.600
therefore let's say it changed the way of
seeing that.

00:23:37.600 --> 00:23:41.600
The history of armed conflicts not so

00:23:41.600 --> 00:23:45.600
much from the perspective of the General

00:23:45.600 --> 00:23:49.600
Staff Table, which is where it was

00:23:49.600 --> 00:23:53.840
studied, but from the actual line of
fire.

00:23:58.080 --> 00:24:02.080
Huh? Another key author is Martín, who in
this

00:24:02.080 --> 00:24:06.080
case did focus more on the military
organization,

00:24:06.080 --> 00:24:09.960
less, let's say, on the social aspect.

00:24:09.960 --> 00:24:13.960
Therefore, for me, he is an author who
doesn't interest me

00:24:13.960 --> 00:24:17.960
that much and whom I haven't used much in
my studies, neither

00:24:17.960 --> 00:24:21.960
when I've tried to escape, nor when I've
organized and

00:24:21.960 --> 00:24:25.960
edited books on the civil wars of the
20th century, because

00:24:25.960 --> 00:24:29.960
he focuses more on administration,
resources, discipline,

00:24:29.960 --> 00:24:33.960
technology, supply chains, and perhaps
the most interesting

00:24:33.960 --> 00:24:37.960
part is the part about discipline, in
which, without going

00:24:37.960 --> 00:24:41.960
so far as to use aspects that seem
fundamental to understanding

00:24:41.960 --> 00:24:45.960
discipline within armies and that in some
way help, let's

00:24:45.960 --> 00:24:51.480
say, to understand the behavior of the
combatants who are.

00:24:51.480 --> 00:24:55.480
Ultimately, the ultimate goal, let's say,
of

00:24:55.480 --> 00:24:59.480
the study of historiographical renewal
within

00:24:59.480 --> 00:25:03.480
war studies, does not apply to the
theories of

00:25:03.480 --> 00:25:06.880
authors that I consider fundamental.

00:25:07.000 --> 00:25:11.000
First, obviously, there is Michel
Foucault

00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:14.680
and his classic book that, let's say, is

00:25:14.680 --> 00:25:17.680
the one that uses most of them.

00:25:17.680 --> 00:25:20.600
But we could also talk about Erwin
Hoffmann.

00:25:20.600 --> 00:25:24.600
Wilford maintains a book called Asylums,
which

00:25:24.600 --> 00:25:28.600
talks more about, let's say, the centers
of,

00:25:28.600 --> 00:25:32.600
let's say, psychiatric, but that idea of
​​a

00:25:32.600 --> 00:25:36.600
total institution in which there is
absolute

00:25:36.600 --> 00:25:40.600
control of what any author, any, let's
say,

00:25:40.600 --> 00:25:44.600
combatant or member who belongs to that
total

00:25:44.600 --> 00:25:49.680
institution does, can be perfectly
applied to war today.

00:25:50.320 --> 00:25:54.320
If we analyze the wars of the 19th
century,

00:25:54.320 --> 00:25:58.320
examining the texts of Manuel San Tirso
de

00:25:58.320 --> 00:26:02.320
Pedro Brújula de Manuel Chus, among many

00:26:02.320 --> 00:26:06.320
others, we see that the discipline
aspect,

00:26:06.320 --> 00:26:10.320
both in the 19th and 20th centuries, is

00:26:10.320 --> 00:26:14.320
fundamental; that is, there is absolute

00:26:14.320 --> 00:26:17.320
control over what the combatant

00:26:17.320 --> 00:26:20.320
does, which in some way also determines
his behavior.

00:26:20.640 --> 00:26:24.640
Hence the distinction that this new
historiography

00:26:24.640 --> 00:26:28.640
on armed conflicts attempts to make: to
analyze the

00:26:28.640 --> 00:26:32.640
differences between behavior and, let's
say,

00:26:32.640 --> 00:26:36.640
agency. And that often this agency is
determined

00:26:36.640 --> 00:26:40.640
by the degree of discipline and control
that exists

00:26:40.640 --> 00:26:44.640
over the combatants, but then this lack
of agency

00:26:44.640 --> 00:26:48.640
does not determine what their behavior,
their

00:26:48.640 --> 00:26:52.640
positioning, their thinking, their
emotions are

00:26:52.640 --> 00:26:56.640
when they are in armed conflict. That is,
what leads

00:26:56.640 --> 00:27:00.640
a combatant to fight? Well, there are
different

00:27:00.640 --> 00:27:04.560
aspects that have been analyzed from the
perspective

00:27:04.560 --> 00:27:07.560
of the history of social psychology.

00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:12.000
In this case, well, I have, let's say, an
article that

00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:16.000
deals with that and in which, well, the
texts of Albert

00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:20.000
Gelman are very useful, for example, in
this sense, and

00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:24.000
I think that these are aspects that are
more interesting

00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:28.000
to me if they are analyzed, if, let's
say, historical

00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:33.640
novels appeared, obviously they would be
the historical novels that I would read.

00:27:33.640 --> 00:27:37.640
The problem is that I don't read
historical novels

00:27:37.640 --> 00:27:42.480
about my research topic, because they
really lack that value.

00:27:42.880 --> 00:27:46.120
Another author who needs to be cited is
José.

00:27:46.120 --> 00:27:48.360
The Emmons.

00:27:48.360 --> 00:27:53.720
He's a Jewish historian.

00:27:53.720 --> 00:27:57.720
It is important to mention that he is
Jewish because of one of the

00:27:57.720 --> 00:28:01.720
books he published, which is about the
nationalization of the

00:28:01.720 --> 00:28:05.720
masses in Germany, but he also has a book
that is fundamental to

00:28:05.720 --> 00:28:09.560
understanding the culture of war, as he
calls it, and it is called Fallen Soldier

00:28:09.560 --> 00:28:11.480
Soldiers.

00:28:11.960 --> 00:28:15.960
I believe there is already a Spanish
translation

00:28:15.960 --> 00:28:19.960
of Empresas Universitarias de Zaragoza
PIN de

00:28:19.960 --> 00:28:23.960
Memory of the World, in which he calls,
or rather

00:28:23.960 --> 00:28:27.960
called, the myth of the experience of
war, that is,

00:28:27.960 --> 00:28:31.960
a vision of war that hid its horror,
sacralized its

00:28:31.960 --> 00:28:36.280
memory and gave it a superior meaning
within the nation.

00:28:36.280 --> 00:28:40.280
In other words, what Jorge Lemos tries to
do is analyze

00:28:40.280 --> 00:28:44.280
that myth of the war experience that was
in the

00:28:44.280 --> 00:28:48.280
historiography that was done within the
19th century,

00:28:48.280 --> 00:28:52.280
not about the current 19th century, in
which, well, all

00:28:52.280 --> 00:28:56.280
these aspects of horror, of combat, of
the role of the

00:28:56.280 --> 00:29:02.160
combatant, were, let's say, hidden within
that superior idea that was the nation.

00:29:02.560 --> 00:29:06.560
Moss's great innovation was to show that
the war did not end on

00:29:06.560 --> 00:29:10.560
the front lines, it continued in public
memory, and that is

00:29:10.560 --> 00:29:14.560
fundamental to understanding it in
relation to nationalism,

00:29:14.560 --> 00:29:18.560
rituals, and the masculinity that
remained after the conflict.

00:29:18.560 --> 00:29:22.560
This masculinity arose within the context
of the war and had

00:29:22.560 --> 00:29:26.560
its continuity. It was a masculinity,
let's say, different

00:29:26.560 --> 00:29:30.560
from that which was socialized among
people who were not yet

00:29:30.560 --> 00:29:34.560
combatants and who, when they returned,
ceased to be combatants

00:29:34.560 --> 00:29:38.960
and returned to real life. It was
different, but they maintained it.

00:29:39.360 --> 00:29:43.360
And then that legitimization of violence
in

00:29:43.360 --> 00:29:46.760
the end, the war, if that is
characterized

00:29:46.760 --> 00:29:49.760
by anything, it is by violence.

00:29:50.320 --> 00:29:54.320
In the violence against the enemy, an
enemy

00:29:54.320 --> 00:29:58.320
that is created, that is, that idea of
​​one

00:29:58.320 --> 00:30:02.480
against the other, it already exists.

00:30:03.400 --> 00:30:05.960
almost theorized

00:30:05.960 --> 00:30:08.720
in the 19th century and it is something
that continued throughout the 19th

00:30:08.720 --> 00:30:10.120
century.

00:30:10.120 --> 00:30:12.640
That is, the dehumanization of the enemy.

00:30:12.640 --> 00:30:16.640
He tries to analyze it and see how that
collective memory continues

00:30:16.640 --> 00:30:20.640
and then that sacralization of the
soldier, that brutal

00:30:20.640 --> 00:30:24.640
indoctrination of, let's say, the
politics that exists in that

00:30:24.640 --> 00:30:28.640
period and that can be seen, let's say,
with all the tributes that

00:30:28.640 --> 00:30:33.400
there are, both from the 19th and 20th
centuries, to the fallen soldier.

00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:38.000
It is true that the idea of ​​the unknown
soldier

00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:42.000
is typical of the First World War, but
let's

00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:46.000
say that the collective memory of the
great

00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:50.000
generals is something that is present in
all

00:30:50.000 --> 00:30:53.800
the squares of our, of our, of our State.

00:30:54.160 --> 00:30:58.160
And this, let's say, is typical of a type
of conception

00:30:58.160 --> 00:31:02.160
of armed conflicts that the new history
of armed

00:31:02.160 --> 00:31:06.160
conflicts tries to eliminate, therefore,
the

00:31:06.160 --> 00:31:10.160
methodology of military history with
cultural

00:31:10.160 --> 00:31:14.160
history and then the analysis of fascism,
which is

00:31:14.160 --> 00:31:18.400
what interests him most, but this is
being applied.

00:31:18.400 --> 00:31:22.400
The new studies of war in authors such as
those I have cited,

00:31:22.400 --> 00:31:26.400
the one cited to Manuel San Tirso, to
cite Elena Hernández

00:31:26.400 --> 00:31:30.520
for the studies of Carlism, to Francisco,
capisce?

00:31:30.640 --> 00:31:34.640
And also on the studies of Carlism, on
the first,

00:31:34.640 --> 00:31:39.320
on, let's say, the conflicts of the war
of independence.

00:31:39.320 --> 00:31:42.320
Álvaro París. Pedro Rojo. La.

00:31:42.720 --> 00:31:46.720
In short, he is seeing, let's say, a
change in Spain and

00:31:46.720 --> 00:31:50.720
then outside, for example, Matilde de
Greiff on the

00:31:50.720 --> 00:31:54.720
Napoleonic Wars, who in some way focuses
more on the

00:31:54.720 --> 00:31:58.720
role of the soldier than on the role,
let's say, of the

00:31:58.720 --> 00:32:03.520
conflict itself or of the generals who
accompanied Napoleon.

00:32:03.520 --> 00:32:07.360
That is, biographies about Napoleon,
about.

00:32:07.360 --> 00:32:10.200
In my opinion, however.

00:32:10.200 --> 00:32:15.400
There are very few biographies about
soldiers from the Napoleonic Wars.

00:32:15.840 --> 00:32:18.840
And that can also be applied to the 20th
century.

00:32:19.960 --> 00:32:23.960
Then, seeing dead bodies or births, he

00:32:23.960 --> 00:32:27.960
explained and wrote a fundamental book
about

00:32:27.960 --> 00:32:32.040
the use of Hitler's army during the Civil
War.

00:32:32.080 --> 00:32:36.080
So there he talks about how brutal the
soldiers are, and

00:32:36.080 --> 00:32:40.080
that's something that appears reflected
in many books

00:32:40.080 --> 00:32:44.080
by people from that century, and he
applies it to the 19th

00:32:44.080 --> 00:32:48.080
century, and I think it's fundamental if
we talk later,

00:32:48.080 --> 00:32:52.080
if we talk about why the soldiers talk.
I've said that what

00:32:52.080 --> 00:32:56.080
determines a war is violence, but the
other thing that

00:32:56.080 --> 00:33:00.080
determines it is the role of the
combatant, and he only has

00:33:00.080 --> 00:33:04.080
one thing to do in a war, which is to
kill; that's his only

00:33:04.080 --> 00:33:08.560
objective, because otherwise what he's
going to do is get killed.

00:33:08.560 --> 00:33:11.600
So, he's a combatant in a war, does he do
that?

00:33:11.600 --> 00:33:15.200
No, he doesn't think, let's say, about
the nation, he thinks about survival.

00:33:15.720 --> 00:33:19.720
And in this case, well, John Burke's
book, Intimate

00:33:19.720 --> 00:33:23.720
History of Killing, which analyzes
different war

00:33:23.720 --> 00:33:27.720
contexts, and then those war contexts are
World

00:33:27.720 --> 00:33:30.720
War II, the Vietnam War, and I don't

00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:33.720
remember what the other war is, eh?

00:33:34.680 --> 00:33:38.680
It makes connections with and from
19th-century

00:33:38.680 --> 00:33:42.680
contexts, as it is very fundamental, as
it also

00:33:42.680 --> 00:33:46.680
analyzes the role of the body, emotions,

00:33:46.680 --> 00:33:49.680
masculinity, and everyday violence.

00:33:49.680 --> 00:33:52.680
And I think it's one of the books. Of
course.

00:33:53.040 --> 00:33:57.040
And then there is a growing concern about
the

00:33:57.040 --> 00:34:01.040
relationship between war and
paramilitarism

00:34:01.040 --> 00:34:04.080
in some cases, or post-war violence

00:34:04.080 --> 00:34:07.080
and the post-war period.

00:34:07.080 --> 00:34:11.080
It seems that in historiography a kind of

00:34:11.080 --> 00:34:15.080
idea has been applied in which the war
ends

00:34:15.080 --> 00:34:19.080
when the historian says so, that is, the
First

00:34:19.080 --> 00:34:22.720
World War or the Carlist War or the

00:34:22.720 --> 00:34:25.720
Napoleonic Wars end in such a period.

00:34:26.000 --> 00:34:29.160
However, what happens in the period that
follows?

00:34:29.160 --> 00:34:33.160
So, this continuity of violence and

00:34:33.160 --> 00:34:37.160
certain social dynamics that occur

00:34:37.160 --> 00:34:41.160
in war contexts continues during the

00:34:41.160 --> 00:34:45.160
post-war period, not only in all those

00:34:45.160 --> 00:34:49.160
studies on, let's say, the more

00:34:49.160 --> 00:34:53.160
psychological aspects, which is my

00:34:53.160 --> 00:34:58.600
current research focus, but also other
aspects.

00:34:58.600 --> 00:35:02.160
In other words, there is not such a clear
separation between war and peace.

00:35:02.160 --> 00:35:05.840
When an armistice is signed, peace does
not begin; quite the opposite.

00:35:06.200 --> 00:35:10.200
You simply have to, for example, read the
book

00:35:10.200 --> 00:35:14.200
by what seems to me to be one of the best
historians

00:35:14.200 --> 00:35:18.200
in Europe, which is called Savage
Continent,

00:35:18.200 --> 00:35:22.200
the Spanish translation, and in which he
observes,

00:35:22.200 --> 00:35:26.200
in which he analyzes the violence after
the

00:35:26.200 --> 00:35:30.200
signing of the peace treaties and the
violence

00:35:30.200 --> 00:35:34.200
that the Allies perpetrated against the
Italians,

00:35:34.200 --> 00:35:38.200
against the French Allies, against the
Italian

00:35:38.200 --> 00:35:41.680
Fascists and against all those who had

00:35:41.680 --> 00:35:44.680
collaborated with Fascism.

00:35:44.960 --> 00:35:48.720
This can be applied to the 19th century
in a way, uh, Clara. It's

00:35:48.720 --> 00:35:51.720
something that's being applied more and
more.

00:35:51.720 --> 00:35:55.720
The work of Álvaro París, for example, is
increasingly

00:35:55.720 --> 00:35:59.720
directed in that respect, as are the
works of

00:35:59.720 --> 00:36:03.720
Alberto de Pablos, also from Complutense

00:36:03.720 --> 00:36:07.720
University, and in some way, in those
analyses of

00:36:07.720 --> 00:36:11.080
armed conflicts, there is a relationship.

00:36:11.560 --> 00:36:15.560
If we look at the Spanish case, there
are, let's say, some

00:36:15.560 --> 00:36:19.280
authors who collect what is being worked
on abroad.

00:36:19.280 --> 00:36:23.280
Well, I have to mention the case of

00:36:23.280 --> 00:36:27.280
Javi Rodrigo, who has written several

00:36:27.280 --> 00:36:32.760
books, recently he wrote a book called
The War.

00:36:32.760 --> 00:36:36.760
Well, a book that is in the present and
past,

00:36:36.760 --> 00:36:40.200
published in the year 2025, which is a

00:36:40.200 --> 00:36:43.200
theoretical book about armed conflicts.

00:36:43.480 --> 00:36:46.480
There Eduardo González Callejas, José
Manuel Seijas.

00:36:48.920 --> 00:36:52.920
James Macías in the one in which they
include

00:36:52.920 --> 00:36:56.920
all these aspects that he talks about and
what

00:36:56.920 --> 00:37:00.920
is the situation, let's say, between what
is

00:37:00.920 --> 00:37:04.920
written in the world, in the
historiographical

00:37:04.920 --> 00:37:08.920
world, that is, the role of combat
experience,

00:37:08.920 --> 00:37:12.920
the culture of war, the ideology or lack
thereof

00:37:12.920 --> 00:37:16.920
of the combatants, the role of veterans
and

00:37:16.920 --> 00:37:21.520
memory, emotion, trauma, subjectivity.

00:37:21.880 --> 00:37:25.880
What is its role, let's say, in fiction,
especially of the 19th

00:37:25.880 --> 00:37:29.880
century, which is where I think
historical fiction predominates

00:37:29.880 --> 00:37:33.000
in Spain, since there is very little
historical

00:37:33.000 --> 00:37:36.000
fiction, discounting the civil war, eh?

00:37:36.000 --> 00:37:37.480
In Spain?

00:37:37.480 --> 00:37:40.000
Well, for me, very little.

00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:42.000
And that is, let's say, the big problem.

00:37:42.000 --> 00:37:46.000
I have spoken of the texts of Pérez
Reverte, who is perhaps the

00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:49.640
great EH, not the great literary man, but
the great salesman of that historical

00:37:49.640 --> 00:37:51.480
period.

00:37:51.480 --> 00:37:55.480
Are there others that follow the same
line

00:37:55.480 --> 00:37:59.480
and that I don't think address, let's
say,

00:37:59.480 --> 00:38:03.320
these aspects that are being discussed?

00:38:03.320 --> 00:38:07.320
Perhaps for the Civil War there are some
more changes, in

00:38:07.320 --> 00:38:11.320
this case of this collaboration by Paco
Cerdán mainly

00:38:11.320 --> 00:38:15.400
because I do think that it touches on
these more social aspects.

00:38:15.400 --> 00:38:18.400
I probably wouldn't include myself

00:38:18.400 --> 00:38:21.400
personally, but I would include him.

00:38:21.400 --> 00:38:26.440
But Pérez-Reverte, despite that, well,
no, he doesn't enter into fiction.

00:38:26.440 --> 00:38:28.360
Not about the 19th century either.

00:38:28.360 --> 00:38:32.360
I think that 19th-century fandom doesn't
analyze

00:38:32.360 --> 00:38:36.360
that, let's say, that complexity of the
combatant

00:38:36.360 --> 00:38:40.360
as it can appear in the 20th century, uh,
books, for

00:38:40.360 --> 00:38:44.360
example, like Christopher Brown's and
that had

00:38:44.360 --> 00:38:47.760
an excellent one-hour documentary.

00:38:47.760 --> 00:38:51.760
That is to say, and I recommend to
everyone that

00:38:51.760 --> 00:38:55.760
it is called Ordinarily, in which several
authors

00:38:55.760 --> 00:38:59.560
participate such as Knights, the
psychologist,

00:38:59.560 --> 00:39:02.560
as can be Eh, eh eh himself.

00:39:02.720 --> 00:39:04.360
Robert Gervas, huh?

00:39:04.360 --> 00:39:08.320
Oh, and Christopher Browning, in which
they analyze why the soldier

00:39:08.320 --> 00:39:11.320
kills and what the psychological
consequences are.

00:39:11.880 --> 00:39:17.680
Uh, they don't appear. The role of the
sources also has a big influence.

00:39:17.680 --> 00:39:21.680
I think that for other social contexts we
have a variety

00:39:21.680 --> 00:39:24.720
of more important sources, but these

00:39:24.720 --> 00:39:27.720
sources are, let's say, fundamental.

00:39:27.720 --> 00:39:31.720
And here, uh, let's say, uh, the diaries,
the,

00:39:31.720 --> 00:39:35.720
uh, the writings about the war
experiences focus

00:39:35.720 --> 00:39:39.720
more on vindicating the heroic aspects,
because

00:39:39.720 --> 00:39:42.840
that was what I really expected.

00:39:42.840 --> 00:39:45.120
Society, let's say, find.

00:39:45.120 --> 00:39:49.120
And we have, let's say, that problem and
that,

00:39:49.120 --> 00:39:52.440
that lack, let's say, perhaps of sources.

00:39:52.440 --> 00:39:56.440
It is true that there are very relevant
sources that channel, let's

00:39:56.440 --> 00:39:59.720
say, the harshness of war, but perhaps
they are not, let's say, represented in

00:39:59.720 --> 00:40:01.360
books.

00:40:01.360 --> 00:40:04.480
And then another part of the fiction that
I think is important is its, let's say,

00:40:04.480 --> 00:40:06.040
political aspect.

00:40:06.400 --> 00:40:10.440
In this case we see how there is a, a,
let's say, a setback.

00:40:10.840 --> 00:40:14.840
While there has been progress among
certain

00:40:14.840 --> 00:40:18.840
authors, there has been a setback on the
part of

00:40:18.840 --> 00:40:22.840
political parties such as Vox, which
includes

00:40:22.840 --> 00:40:26.160
supposedly heroic acts by certain figures

00:40:26.160 --> 00:40:29.160
from the 19th, 18th, and 17th centuries.

00:40:29.240 --> 00:40:33.240
To once again reclaim, let's say, that

00:40:33.240 --> 00:40:37.080
idea of ​​the nation as something,

00:40:37.080 --> 00:40:40.080
let's say, uh, intrinsic.

00:40:40.080 --> 00:40:44.080
And what about the selflessness of those
soldiers who are

00:40:44.080 --> 00:40:48.000
able to motivate themselves, to see the
role of that

00:40:48.000 --> 00:40:51.000
mutilated soldier as something positive,
huh?

00:40:51.000 --> 00:40:55.000
And that vindicates the role of, let's
say,

00:40:55.000 --> 00:40:59.000
the nation, that is, that nation, uh, uh,

00:40:59.000 --> 00:41:03.000
mutilated in some way is discursively
picked

00:41:03.000 --> 00:41:07.000
up by the new far-right parties, not only
by

00:41:07.000 --> 00:41:11.000
VOX, but also if we can analyze the
speech of

00:41:11.000 --> 00:41:15.000
Nigel Farage in the United Kingdom, it
picks

00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:18.080
up many of these aspects of the heroic

00:41:18.080 --> 00:41:21.080
battles of the British Empire.

00:41:21.080 --> 00:41:25.080
It also appears in some cases in some of

00:41:25.080 --> 00:41:29.080
Le Pen's speeches and in some way
distorts

00:41:29.080 --> 00:41:33.080
in the public sphere what a war really

00:41:33.080 --> 00:41:37.080
means and therefore, as a final
conclusion,

00:41:37.080 --> 00:41:41.080
I think there is a lack of understanding

00:41:41.080 --> 00:41:45.080
about what the war was, what a war really

00:41:45.080 --> 00:41:49.120
is and what is believed to be a war.

00:41:49.120 --> 00:41:53.120
And I think that diversity and difference

00:41:53.120 --> 00:41:56.680
is one of the aspects to improve, right?

00:41:56.720 --> 00:41:59.200
Which way?

00:41:59.200 --> 00:42:03.200
I think the way forward is to continue
making good history, to

00:42:03.200 --> 00:42:07.200
make a history that is accessible and
that has, let's say, a

00:42:07.200 --> 00:42:11.200
bridge between those who make fiction and
those of us who make

00:42:11.200 --> 00:42:15.200
history, let's say as a discipline, so
that in that fiction

00:42:15.200 --> 00:42:18.680
these aspects, let's say, negative
aspects of what armed conflicts are,

00:42:18.680 --> 00:42:20.440
appear.

00:42:20.840 --> 00:42:23.200
And that concludes my remarks.

00:42:23.200 --> 00:42:27.200
And if I run away, I'll apologize because
I have a class,

00:42:27.200 --> 00:42:31.200
because in the third year we're very
modern and we take

00:42:31.200 --> 00:42:35.200
humanities courses for other disciplines
and they

00:42:35.200 --> 00:42:39.040
schedule it for us at lunchtime, so maybe
I have to

00:42:39.040 --> 00:42:42.040
leave and not be in the debate session.

00:42:42.320 --> 00:42:44.320
That concludes my statement.

00:42:44.320 --> 00:42:48.280
Thank you so much for everything, and I
hope it was

00:42:48.280 --> 00:42:51.280
helpful and relatively interesting.

00:42:51.400 --> 00:42:52.080
Thank you so much.

00:42:56.360 --> 00:42:58.120
Well, thank you very much.

00:42:58.120 --> 00:43:02.120
So, you've brought up the relationship

00:43:02.120 --> 00:43:05.160
between history and literature

00:43:05.160 --> 00:43:08.160
to address the war, huh?

00:43:08.160 --> 00:43:12.160
And in your historiographical journey you
have

00:43:12.160 --> 00:43:15.880
raised two issues that I think are
important.

00:43:15.880 --> 00:43:20.680
One, the step from somebody to nobody to
the study of somebody to nobody.

00:43:21.280 --> 00:43:25.280
And on the other hand, uh, something that
uh seems to me also

00:43:25.280 --> 00:43:29.280
noteworthy and that belongs to the
criticism, an important

00:43:29.280 --> 00:43:33.280
historiographical criticism within the
studies of military

00:43:33.280 --> 00:43:36.400
history, which is when the war ends,
right?

00:43:36.400 --> 00:43:40.400
Post-war spaces as violent spaces should
not be

00:43:40.400 --> 00:43:44.760
restricted solely to the moment of
conflict, but to conflicts.

00:43:45.240 --> 00:43:49.000
And these are two interesting issues that
have come to renew, in a way,

00:43:49.000 --> 00:43:50.920
historiography.

00:43:50.920 --> 00:43:54.920
And as Fran has rightly said, not only
the historiography about

00:43:54.920 --> 00:43:58.680
the present moment, but that can be
transferred to other

00:43:58.680 --> 00:44:01.680
historical moments depending on the
sources.

00:44:01.680 --> 00:44:05.680
We continue our tour at our table and now
Oliver

00:44:05.680 --> 00:44:09.680
Zimmerman, from the University of Pasha,
Germany,

00:44:09.680 --> 00:44:13.680
is going to speak to us about the
literary

00:44:13.680 --> 00:44:17.600
deconstruction of a myth, the
anti-Sebastiánism of Portuguese

00:44:17.600 --> 00:44:19.600
literature.

00:44:19.600 --> 00:44:25.240
During the war years it reached
1,808,822.

00:44:25.960 --> 00:44:28.960
Professor Zimmerman is.

00:44:30.760 --> 00:44:32.480
Doctor

00:44:32.480 --> 00:44:36.480
by the University of Salzburg with a
thesis

00:44:36.480 --> 00:44:40.440
on the self-image and the reciprocal
image

00:44:40.440 --> 00:44:43.440
of others in Portugal and Spain.

00:44:43.440 --> 00:44:47.440
Among her main lines of research, this
one,

00:44:47.440 --> 00:44:51.440
mmm all focused on the Iberian Peninsula,

00:44:51.440 --> 00:44:55.440
cultural transfer, image-ology and

00:44:55.440 --> 00:44:58.960
censorship since the 16th century.

00:45:00.200 --> 00:45:04.200
In addition, it also deals with issues of
horror

00:45:04.200 --> 00:45:08.240
literature in 21st-century Latin American
women authors.

00:45:08.240 --> 00:45:13.800
With all this, we give the floor to
Professor Zimmerman.

00:45:16.080 --> 00:45:17.160
Hello.

00:45:17.160 --> 00:45:18.880
Can you hear me okay?

00:45:18.880 --> 00:45:21.880
Yes, perfectly. Perfect.

00:45:22.120 --> 00:45:26.560
Yes, dear Israel, thank you very much for
this lovely presentation.

00:45:27.040 --> 00:45:30.760
And thank you very much also for the
invitation to these

00:45:30.760 --> 00:45:33.760
conferences and for the opportunity to
give a lecture.

00:45:34.280 --> 00:45:38.280
Of course, it would be much better to be
there with you in

00:45:38.280 --> 00:45:43.440
Madrid, but I'm sure we'll be able to
meet again in person in the future.

00:45:43.440 --> 00:45:46.440
I hope so, huh?

00:45:47.240 --> 00:45:51.240
I'm sharing it on my screen,

00:45:51.240 --> 00:45:55.960
that way it looks perfect, okay?

00:45:57.400 --> 00:45:59.840
Just a clarification, huh?

00:45:59.840 --> 00:46:02.760
Now

00:46:02.760 --> 00:46:04.760
a preliminary clarification.

00:46:04.760 --> 00:46:08.760
My presentation is not exactly about
historical novels, but it

00:46:08.760 --> 00:46:12.440
is about a 19th-century theme that unites
history, reality, and myth with

00:46:12.440 --> 00:46:14.280
literature.

00:46:14.760 --> 00:46:18.760
Didn't I know it was an international
historical

00:46:18.760 --> 00:46:23.600
fiction conference until I received
Antonio's email?

00:46:23.600 --> 00:46:29.440
Israel had told me it could be any topic
related to the 19th century.

00:46:29.440 --> 00:46:33.440
And well, this is good, I want to
comment,

00:46:33.440 --> 00:46:37.000
but wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

00:46:37.400 --> 00:46:38.920
This needs to be precise.

00:46:41.080 --> 00:46:44.440
Because, well, that needs to be precise.

00:46:44.440 --> 00:46:48.440
It's not a "Let's see, this is a series
of

00:46:48.440 --> 00:46:52.840
congresses that Professor Antonio Huertas
started."

00:46:52.840 --> 00:46:58.720
Of course, uh, it started from the
question of the historical novel.

00:46:58.720 --> 00:47:03.640
But we decided to open up a bit to
everything related to the 19th century.

00:47:04.120 --> 00:47:08.120
So I didn't say anything wrong when I
told you that, as

00:47:08.120 --> 00:47:12.120
you can see in the program, many of the
presentations

00:47:12.120 --> 00:47:16.120
are not restricted to the issue of the
historical novel,

00:47:16.120 --> 00:47:20.000
but are restricted to something linked to
topics and

00:47:20.000 --> 00:47:23.000
issues related to the 19th century.

00:47:23.560 --> 00:47:27.560
In other words, we have opened this up
because we have

00:47:27.560 --> 00:47:31.560
decided to give philosophical,
historical, and

00:47:31.560 --> 00:47:35.320
historiographical contexts to those
19th-century novels.

00:47:35.400 --> 00:47:37.360
Therefore, it's not that.

00:47:37.360 --> 00:47:42.480
Don't get involved, okay?

00:47:42.640 --> 00:47:46.560
Themes and perspectives that are not
solely from

00:47:46.560 --> 00:47:49.560
the historical novel, although the

00:47:50.760 --> 00:47:53.440
topic or the

00:47:53.440 --> 00:47:56.440
The line of Congress is titled thus.

00:47:56.800 --> 00:47:58.560
Yes, yes, it wasn't, it was just.

00:47:58.560 --> 00:48:02.560
Well, it gave you a little scare because
I thought that

00:48:02.560 --> 00:48:06.560
maybe you thought that the literature I'm
going to present,

00:48:06.560 --> 00:48:10.560
which are like historical novels, which
are concerned

00:48:10.560 --> 00:48:16.280
with the port, with the Sebastianism,
anti-Sebastiánism, but they are not.

00:48:16.280 --> 00:48:18.640
That's why he was Saul.

00:48:18.640 --> 00:48:22.160
It seems I got a little scare when I saw
the central theme of the historical

00:48:22.160 --> 00:48:23.920
novel.

00:48:23.920 --> 00:48:25.200
Me too.

00:48:25.200 --> 00:48:29.240
But I don't think anything like what you
think.

00:48:29.240 --> 00:48:31.040
I mean, I'm not thinking anything. Right?

00:48:31.040 --> 00:48:33.240
You think what you want. I don't.

00:48:33.240 --> 00:48:35.280
It's not for nothing.

00:48:35.280 --> 00:48:38.280
And don't worry, it is.

00:48:39.040 --> 00:48:40.600
It has great spaciousness.

00:48:40.600 --> 00:48:42.560
I mean, no, it's not restricted.

00:48:42.560 --> 00:48:45.520
That's if you look at the program; there
are many presentations that are not

00:48:45.520 --> 00:48:47.040
restricted to that.

00:48:47.040 --> 00:48:51.040
Did we want to give it precisely an
interdisciplinary

00:48:51.040 --> 00:48:55.040
character, an inter-epoch character and
new perspectives

00:48:55.040 --> 00:48:59.040
that help to understand many of the
things of the 19th

00:48:59.040 --> 00:49:03.040
century, as Professor Leira has done for
us now, who has

00:49:03.040 --> 00:49:06.080
helped us understand many things about
the

00:49:06.080 --> 00:49:09.080
wars, etc., based on a comparative work,
right?

00:49:09.440 --> 00:49:13.440
In other words, everything adds up.

00:49:13.440 --> 00:49:17.440
Isn't it true that we're used to

00:49:17.440 --> 00:49:22.600
micro-focusing on issues, topics, and so
on?

00:49:22.720 --> 00:49:26.720
But also, I think that we all, both
Antonio and

00:49:26.720 --> 00:49:31.160
I, are tired of everything being so
strict, right?

00:49:31.240 --> 00:49:35.240
Well, we've opened things up a bit and
tried to,

00:49:35.240 --> 00:49:38.640
uh, integrate and give it perspective,

00:49:38.640 --> 00:49:41.640
different perspectives. Right?

00:49:42.280 --> 00:49:45.160
Now don't feel uncomfortable, talk about
whatever you want, say what you want and

00:49:45.160 --> 00:49:46.600
be clear.

00:49:46.600 --> 00:49:50.600
No, no, of course, not only that, I
didn't just want

00:49:50.600 --> 00:49:54.600
to communicate it, but now, now, after
handing over

00:49:54.600 --> 00:49:57.960
the program, in detail and well, that's
it.

00:49:58.160 --> 00:50:00.760
Thanks again for the invitation.

00:50:00.760 --> 00:50:04.480
It's a topic I already worked on a few
years ago.

00:50:04.480 --> 00:50:08.360
Since then, unfortunately, he hasn't
given me the

00:50:08.360 --> 00:50:11.360
opportunity to delve deeper into it
again.

00:50:11.480 --> 00:50:15.480
Mmm, maybe it's not as much as I'd

00:50:15.480 --> 00:50:19.480
like, but now it's certain that it

00:50:19.480 --> 00:50:23.480
would be good to, uh, well, present

00:50:23.480 --> 00:50:27.480
again, uh, the results regarding

00:50:27.480 --> 00:50:31.760
this, this war, elastic lands, uh?

00:50:32.080 --> 00:50:33.920
And that, huh?

00:50:33.920 --> 00:50:37.920
I'm also going to talk about all the
works that

00:50:37.920 --> 00:50:41.920
I know were published on the subject of
this

00:50:41.920 --> 00:50:45.920
controversy, and there may also be, among
the

00:50:45.920 --> 00:50:49.920
texts, something that could be considered
a

00:50:49.920 --> 00:50:53.920
historical novel or historical story, or
if

00:50:53.920 --> 00:50:57.920
in any case they have a lot to do with
that story,

00:50:57.920 --> 00:51:03.040
all that story from Bastian himself, that
myth and.

00:51:03.760 --> 00:51:05.960
And that, huh?

00:51:05.960 --> 00:51:08.160
Well, thanks again.

00:51:08.160 --> 00:51:12.160
And I'm starting with a quote,

00:51:12.160 --> 00:51:16.960
eh, a rather revealing quote, eh?

00:51:17.320 --> 00:51:21.320
Regarding the quotes, I want to mention
first of all that

00:51:21.320 --> 00:51:25.320
they appear in the original Portuguese on
the slides, and

00:51:25.320 --> 00:51:28.960
if I read them, I will read them in
Spanish translation

00:51:28.960 --> 00:51:31.960
because it is easier for me to speak that
way.

00:51:32.360 --> 00:51:36.360
I mean, I also speak Portuguese, that's
not the problem,

00:51:36.360 --> 00:51:40.360
but when I'm here presenting, it's easier
for me to stick

00:51:40.360 --> 00:51:44.360
to one of the two languages, because
that's the kind of

00:51:44.360 --> 00:51:48.360
quote you'd expect from a nation where
half of its people

00:51:48.360 --> 00:51:53.920
are waiting for the Messiah and the other
half for King Sebastian.

00:51:54.680 --> 00:51:58.680
These words, supposedly spoken by the
French philosopher

00:51:58.680 --> 00:52:02.680
and scientist Baptist de los 11 Dallas
Best in the 18th

00:52:02.680 --> 00:52:06.680
century and quoted in a letter from an
anonymous

00:52:06.680 --> 00:52:12.480
19th-century Portuguese author, allow us
to deduce three observations.

00:52:13.560 --> 00:52:17.560
First, they indicate that in 18th-century
Portugal there was

00:52:17.560 --> 00:52:22.360
a considerable number of people who
followed the Sebastian tradition.

00:52:22.840 --> 00:52:26.840
Secondly, they unequivocally attest that
in 18th-century

00:52:26.840 --> 00:52:30.840
France, or among intellectuals whose idea
about the

00:52:30.840 --> 00:52:34.840
Portuguese people was based on the
information that

00:52:34.840 --> 00:52:38.840
the Portuguese followed the messianic
belief, this

00:52:38.840 --> 00:52:43.480
was considered despicable and harmful to
the entire nation.

00:52:44.320 --> 00:52:48.000
And thirdly, they imply the importance of
this

00:52:48.000 --> 00:52:51.000
phenomenon in Portuguese society, even
in.

00:52:51.200 --> 00:52:55.200
At the beginning of the 19th century,
since they

00:52:55.200 --> 00:53:00.400
appeared in this letter which also bears
the name War in its title.

00:53:00.400 --> 00:53:03.200
Sebastian.

00:53:03.200 --> 00:53:07.200
The fact that the anonymous author speaks
of a war in his letter.

00:53:07.280 --> 00:53:08.560
In that context.

00:53:08.560 --> 00:53:12.560
Declaring himself impartial, he suggests
a strong

00:53:12.560 --> 00:53:16.560
controversy at that time among certain
Portuguese

00:53:16.560 --> 00:53:20.560
intellectuals, some of whom condemned
Sebastian

00:53:20.560 --> 00:53:24.560
himself, while others defended the
positions of that

00:53:24.560 --> 00:53:27.640
messianic movement on the side of the
adversaries.

00:53:27.640 --> 00:53:31.640
The rejection, or rather, the resentment
of

00:53:31.640 --> 00:53:35.640
some, was so great that they even decided
to

00:53:35.640 --> 00:53:39.640
compose literary works against that sect
in

00:53:39.640 --> 00:53:45.120
order to ridicule it and, so to speak,
purify the minds of its supporters.

00:53:47.320 --> 00:53:51.320
Uh, such literary manifestations with a
marked character,

00:53:51.320 --> 00:53:55.360
uh, you anticipated, will be at the
center of my presentation.

00:53:56.000 --> 00:53:59.720
However, before that I want to say a few
words about Sebastian himself and the

00:53:59.720 --> 00:54:01.600
evolution of the myth.

00:54:02.320 --> 00:54:06.320
Sebastian himself is commonly defined as
a prophetic

00:54:06.320 --> 00:54:10.320
and messianic movement based on the
belief that the

00:54:10.320 --> 00:54:14.320
Portuguese king Sebastian, who
disappeared in battles

00:54:14.320 --> 00:54:18.320
long ago, will return to Portugal one
foggy morning to

00:54:18.320 --> 00:54:21.440
lead the country into a new era of
splendor.

00:54:21.680 --> 00:54:25.680
It originates from a society that is not
yet secularized,

00:54:25.680 --> 00:54:29.680
which establishes a connection between
individual and

00:54:29.680 --> 00:54:33.680
collective life and supernatural
elements, as well as

00:54:33.680 --> 00:54:37.480
a strong link with religious faith
throughout the

00:54:37.480 --> 00:54:40.480
ups and downs of Portuguese history.

00:54:40.800 --> 00:54:44.800
This phenomenon was marked by a series of
propagandistic

00:54:44.800 --> 00:54:48.800
and controversial writings that arose as
a result of the

00:54:48.800 --> 00:54:54.200
changing circumstances of different eras,
explaining these ups and downs.

00:54:54.200 --> 00:54:58.360
Also, the wide distribution and long
duration of Sebastian himself.

00:55:00.760 --> 00:55:03.760
The evolution of the myth can be
summarized in five stages.

00:55:04.120 --> 00:55:08.120
As a first stage, a process of rapid
manifestation

00:55:08.120 --> 00:55:12.120
can be observed after the beginning of
the Iberian

00:55:12.120 --> 00:55:16.120
Union and the loss of independence that
this entailed;

00:55:16.120 --> 00:55:20.120
of special importance are the messianic
troops of

00:55:20.120 --> 00:55:25.760
Gonzalo Daza who knew a situationist
interpretation at that time.

00:55:25.800 --> 00:55:29.800
During the times of the Restoration War,
Sebastian

00:55:29.800 --> 00:55:33.800
himself became part of the collective
memory, with John

00:55:33.800 --> 00:55:38.680
IV now being the new hidden figure, the
hidden one, finally appeared.

00:55:40.720 --> 00:55:46.040
After the restoration, when the situation
in the country had finally calmed down.

00:55:46.600 --> 00:55:50.600
One can observe a certain exhaustion of
the myth that in the

00:55:50.600 --> 00:55:54.680
Age of Enlightenment was confronted with
a growing rejection.

00:55:55.600 --> 00:55:59.600
As we shall see in more detail below,
during the crisis years

00:55:59.600 --> 00:56:03.600
of the first decades of the 19th century,
Sebastian himself

00:56:03.600 --> 00:56:07.600
gained new momentum and finally, after
the liberal

00:56:07.600 --> 00:56:12.560
revolution, he became established as a
folkloric element of the culture

00:56:12.560 --> 00:56:15.560
Portuguese.

00:56:17.160 --> 00:56:19.000
Good, huh?

00:56:19.000 --> 00:56:22.800
Let's now look at the events in more
detail.

00:56:22.800 --> 00:56:26.800
In the first quarter of the 19th century,
the French invasions marked

00:56:26.800 --> 00:56:31.480
a turbulent period for Portugal, with the
absence of the Portuguese coast.

00:56:31.480 --> 00:56:35.480
It is the most significant consequence of
those

00:56:35.480 --> 00:56:39.480
years, since it led to English generals
exercising

00:56:39.480 --> 00:56:43.480
de facto government in the country,
generating

00:56:43.480 --> 00:56:47.840
for many an annual situation analogous to
that of 1580.

00:56:48.520 --> 00:56:52.520
In that context, hopes resurfaced for a
liberator or savior

00:56:52.520 --> 00:56:56.520
for the Portuguese people, an echo of a
tradition that sought

00:56:56.520 --> 00:56:59.640
in an exceptional figure the solution to
the

00:56:59.640 --> 00:57:02.640
external threat and the internal crisis.

00:57:03.880 --> 00:57:07.880
Sebastian himself received a new impetus,
also manifesting himself

00:57:07.880 --> 00:57:10.960
in written forms such as pamphlets and
treatises.

00:57:11.560 --> 00:57:15.560
Thus, a scholarly or learned version of
the myth appeared

00:57:15.560 --> 00:57:19.560
alongside the more popular
interpretation, which

00:57:19.560 --> 00:57:22.560
broadened its scope and complexity.

00:57:23.400 --> 00:57:27.400
However, this time he faced strong
counterattacks

00:57:27.400 --> 00:57:33.120
from opponents of the myth, leading to a
real war of words.

00:57:34.000 --> 00:57:38.000
It was a period of intense editorial
controversy that reached

00:57:38.000 --> 00:57:42.000
its peak during the years of the French
invasions, but texts for

00:57:42.000 --> 00:57:46.000
and against Sebastian himself were
published until the

00:57:46.000 --> 00:57:49.760
establishment of the constitutional
monarchy more than 40 times.

00:57:49.760 --> 00:57:52.360
In sum.

00:57:52.360 --> 00:57:56.360
And of all these texts I will present

00:57:56.360 --> 00:58:00.360
below only two, the first being this one

00:58:00.360 --> 00:58:04.360
here with the title or Sebastián is

00:58:04.360 --> 00:58:09.640
disillusioned at the expense of José
Agustín de Macedo.

00:58:14.440 --> 00:58:18.440
Macedo was first a friar of the Order of
Christians in

00:58:18.440 --> 00:58:22.440
Lisbon, but was expelled from the order
and sent to the

00:58:22.440 --> 00:58:26.440
La Gracia convent in Évora, after
repeated accusations

00:58:26.440 --> 00:58:30.360
of book theft and of living publicly in
concubinage.

00:58:30.880 --> 00:58:34.880
After spending time in prison, his future
career might

00:58:34.880 --> 00:58:38.080
not have been very promising if his
relationship

00:58:38.080 --> 00:58:41.080
with Queen Mary I had not been so good.

00:58:41.320 --> 00:58:45.320
It was she who made his release possible
and the

00:58:45.320 --> 00:58:49.320
position he soon held was that of royal
preacher.

00:58:49.320 --> 00:58:53.320
Macedo was a defender of the monarchy and
absolute

00:58:53.320 --> 00:58:57.320
monarchy, the purity of the faith and a
traditional

00:58:57.320 --> 00:59:01.720
Catholicism and an adversary of the
Jesuits.

00:59:01.720 --> 00:59:06.040
Liberal ideas in general, the Freemasons
and the Evangelicals.

00:59:06.800 --> 00:59:10.720
As for his character, he can be described
as an intellectual polemicist and an

00:59:10.720 --> 00:59:12.680
aggressive critic.

00:59:13.120 --> 00:59:16.640
This is reflected in his vast body of
work across different literary genres.

00:59:16.880 --> 00:59:21.920
In total, more than 200 texts, including
an anti-Sebastião Histoire essay.

00:59:23.320 --> 00:59:27.320
This essay leads me to his play, which I
want to

00:59:27.320 --> 00:59:31.320
present to you: a disillusioned
Sebastian.

00:59:31.320 --> 00:59:35.320
The South Likes is a prose comedy with
some short

00:59:35.320 --> 00:59:39.320
verse compositions consisting of two
acts. In the

00:59:39.320 --> 00:59:44.640
year of its completion, the work seems to
have had some success.

00:59:44.640 --> 00:59:48.480
The plot unfolds in Lisbon in the year of
its premiere.

00:59:48.840 --> 00:59:53.040
The action of the work takes place over
the course of 24 hours.

00:59:53.920 --> 00:59:57.960
There are a total of eight characters who
enter the scene.

00:59:58.600 --> 01:00:03.440
Pantaleón Ángel Bello, the protagonist of
the work, and Sebastián are convinced.

01:00:04.000 --> 01:00:09.240
Sebastiana, her daughter Penteo,
Sebastiana Nunes' lover.

01:00:09.240 --> 01:00:12.640
The guru thread is about poor high school

01:00:12.640 --> 01:00:15.640
graduates who deceive and rob Pantaleon.

01:00:15.800 --> 01:00:19.800
José Pérez, who is a friend of Panta
Liado, and

01:00:19.800 --> 01:00:23.800
Sebastián is also there, so Sebastián
must

01:00:23.800 --> 01:00:27.800
marry him, and Mar and Alonso Gallego,
servants

01:00:27.800 --> 01:00:31.800
of the devil, eh? One aspect worth
mentioning

01:00:31.800 --> 01:00:36.640
are the textual references that appear in
the work.

01:00:37.440 --> 01:00:41.440
On one hand, there are several prophetic
poems recited

01:00:41.440 --> 01:00:45.440
mainly by Pantaleon, composed either by
Macedo or by

01:00:45.440 --> 01:00:49.440
one or more of the great Portuguese
prophetic poets,

01:00:49.440 --> 01:00:52.640
which deserves to be investigated.

01:00:53.520 --> 01:00:57.240
On the other hand, the book Sebastián
Islas, by

01:00:57.240 --> 01:01:00.240
Macedo himself, is mentioned five times.

01:01:00.960 --> 01:01:04.200
Within the story, it is Pantaleon who is
truly

01:01:04.200 --> 01:01:07.200
obsessed with this book and with the dog.

01:01:07.280 --> 01:01:11.280
With it, he says that the public is
creating a

01:01:11.280 --> 01:01:15.280
certain irony through these
self-references,

01:01:15.280 --> 01:01:18.640
in addition to advertising his work.

01:01:20.240 --> 01:01:23.760
Having reached this point in the
observations, I think it appropriate

01:01:23.760 --> 01:01:26.760
to make a brief summary of the content of
the work.

01:01:27.640 --> 01:01:31.640
The Nunes high school students and some
poor devils

01:01:31.640 --> 01:01:34.920
hatch a plan to deceive and rob
Sebastian.

01:01:34.960 --> 01:01:35.520
This part.

01:01:35.520 --> 01:01:39.520
Far from it, posing as messengers of the
King's Navy

01:01:39.520 --> 01:01:43.520
commissioner, Don Sebastián, they
cleverly convince him

01:01:43.520 --> 01:01:47.520
that the following night the king will
arrive incognito to

01:01:47.520 --> 01:01:51.520
liberate Portuguese Portu from the French
invaders so that

01:01:51.520 --> 01:01:56.960
he can settle comfortably in his former
kingdom and succeed in the undertaking.

01:01:57.240 --> 01:02:01.240
The king needs a lot of money in this
regard, and the bachelors promise

01:02:01.240 --> 01:02:05.000
Pantaleon that he will occupy a high
position next to the king.

01:02:05.320 --> 01:02:09.320
If he gives you the money beforehand,
he's

01:02:09.320 --> 01:02:13.040
delighted to accept and leaves with great
pomp.

01:02:13.880 --> 01:02:17.880
That means wearing old, rusty armor,
going to Santo

01:02:17.880 --> 01:02:21.880
Amaro beach in the middle of a foggy
night to deliver

01:02:21.880 --> 01:02:25.880
the money to the King's commissioner,
accompanied

01:02:25.880 --> 01:02:29.880
by Nunes. Finally, the boat arrives with
the

01:02:29.880 --> 01:02:34.960
supposed commissioner, who is actually
Lowry in disguise.

01:02:34.960 --> 01:02:38.680
The result of this action is predictable:
Pantaleón is

01:02:38.680 --> 01:02:41.680
beaten and robbed by the two high school
students.

01:02:42.480 --> 01:02:46.080
Disillusioned, he returns home where he
learns that his daughter has run away

01:02:46.080 --> 01:02:47.920
with her lover.

01:02:48.200 --> 01:02:52.200
Fed up with her father's nonsense and
crazy

01:02:52.200 --> 01:02:56.200
ideas, she refuses to marry Rosendo Pérez
in

01:02:56.200 --> 01:02:59.480
a moment of complete desperation.

01:02:59.480 --> 01:03:02.560
Leao even goes so far as to wish for
death.

01:03:02.920 --> 01:03:08.600
But the play wouldn't be a comedy if it
didn't have a happy ending.

01:03:08.600 --> 01:03:11.080
Pantaleon learned from his mistakes.

01:03:11.080 --> 01:03:13.040
His daughter forgives him for some of it.

01:03:13.040 --> 01:03:15.280
Leao happily allows him to marry.

01:03:15.280 --> 01:03:19.280
His lover suddenly becomes generous, and
after that

01:03:19.280 --> 01:03:22.960
lesson from the two bachelors, he carries
all his

01:03:22.960 --> 01:03:25.960
prophetic books and Sebastian lists.

01:03:31.560 --> 01:03:31.960
Good.

01:03:31.960 --> 01:03:35.960
We now read some fragments of the comedy
that clearly

01:03:35.960 --> 01:03:39.960
illustrate the view contrary to
Sebastian, to situationism,

01:03:39.960 --> 01:03:43.120
that sect that more than zero and not
only

01:03:43.120 --> 01:03:46.120
wanted to publicly denounce or ridicule.

01:03:46.680 --> 01:03:50.680
It also seems that his intention was to
instruct the viewers through

01:03:50.680 --> 01:03:55.000
the arguments of his fierce struggle
against the Sebastianists.

01:03:55.520 --> 01:04:01.080
Let's see, then, what strategies he used
to convince the public of his position.

01:04:01.080 --> 01:04:05.080
From the very beginning of the work, it
is observed that the

01:04:05.080 --> 01:04:09.080
defamation of the Sebastián list is
carried out through insults

01:04:09.080 --> 01:04:12.400
that are pronounced openly and without
disguising the problem to which they

01:04:12.400 --> 01:04:14.080
refer.

01:04:15.040 --> 01:04:20.680
Thus, the two high school graduates hatch
plans to deceive Panter Leal.

01:04:20.800 --> 01:04:24.800
In Nunes' opinion, they are the biggest
idiots

01:04:24.800 --> 01:04:27.800
and imbeciles among all the groups

01:04:27.800 --> 01:04:30.800
that defend messianic beliefs.

01:04:31.000 --> 01:04:35.000
As we see in this quote, it is ultimately
Pantaleon's

01:04:35.000 --> 01:04:39.000
stupidity, based on the fact that he is a
Sebastian,

01:04:39.000 --> 01:04:43.120
that will make the two con artists' plan
work.

01:04:43.440 --> 01:04:45.520
And they know it perfectly well.

01:04:45.520 --> 01:04:49.520
As these quotes show, the opinion of the
two

01:04:49.520 --> 01:04:53.520
bachelors is confirmed when Pantaleon
begins

01:04:53.520 --> 01:04:56.520
to recite his prophetic poems.

01:04:57.040 --> 01:05:00.760
However, the insults are not only
directed at Pantaleón,

01:05:00.760 --> 01:05:03.760
Pantaleón, but at all the Sebastián
supporters.

01:05:04.120 --> 01:05:08.120
Based on this consideration of the two
bachelors, Sebastian

01:05:08.120 --> 01:05:11.960
himself does not present a simple
stupidity but the origin of mental

01:05:11.960 --> 01:05:13.880
disorders.

01:05:14.520 --> 01:05:17.480
Another point of criticism from the
author is the credulity of the

01:05:17.480 --> 01:05:19.000
Sebastianists.

01:05:19.880 --> 01:05:23.880
The two bachelors take advantage of this
to

01:05:23.880 --> 01:05:27.880
deceive Punta del Diablo, inventing this

01:05:27.880 --> 01:05:31.880
prophetic poem in quotation marks, and

01:05:31.880 --> 01:05:35.880
interpreting its content arbitrarily,

01:05:35.880 --> 01:05:39.880
establishing a relationship with omens
that

01:05:39.880 --> 01:05:44.160
supposedly have to do with the arrival of
the disguised king.

01:05:44.800 --> 01:05:48.800
The charm of these verses, presumably
written by

01:05:48.800 --> 01:05:52.800
Macedo as a satirical allusion to the
serious prophetic

01:05:52.800 --> 01:05:56.800
poems in quotation marks, lies in the
arbitrariness

01:05:56.800 --> 01:06:00.200
of the chosen words that can be
interpreted

01:06:00.200 --> 01:06:03.200
in any way depending on the situation.

01:06:06.240 --> 01:06:10.240
Besides the two bachelors, it is
Pentheus, Sebastian's

01:06:10.240 --> 01:06:14.200
lover, who expresses an anti-Sebastian
view.

01:06:14.800 --> 01:06:18.800
In this context, it is interesting to
observe the arguments

01:06:18.800 --> 01:06:22.800
he uses to persuade her. He predicts a
bleak future for

01:06:22.800 --> 01:06:26.400
Sebastian if he does not abandon his mad
father.

01:06:27.360 --> 01:06:31.360
Although Sebastiana initially shares
Penteo's opinion,

01:06:31.360 --> 01:06:34.440
she finds herself in a dilemma between
her love

01:06:34.440 --> 01:06:37.440
for her father and the love she feels for
Bento.

01:06:38.200 --> 01:06:41.800
However, this achieves its goal and the

01:06:41.800 --> 01:06:44.800
three flee to Bento's aunt's house.

01:06:44.920 --> 01:06:48.520
While Pantaleon walks along the beach
waiting

01:06:48.520 --> 01:06:51.520
for the King's Navy commissioner.

01:06:52.160 --> 01:06:54.280
On the beach.

01:06:54.280 --> 01:06:58.280
In the end, Pantaleón is assaulted by

01:06:58.280 --> 01:07:02.280
the two bachelors, who at the same time

01:07:02.280 --> 01:07:07.720
strive to cure him, in quotes, by force
of his illness.

01:07:09.040 --> 01:07:12.080
Furthermore, they confront him with some
arguments

01:07:12.080 --> 01:07:15.080
to demonstrate the absurdity of Sebastian
himself.

01:07:15.640 --> 01:07:18.800
However, after that disappointing night
for our

01:07:18.800 --> 01:07:21.800
protagonist, the story reaches a happy
ending.

01:07:22.440 --> 01:07:26.440
We have already seen Pantaleon's last
words when he decides

01:07:26.440 --> 01:07:30.120
to burn his messianic books; they are as
follows.

01:07:30.520 --> 01:07:34.520
This same end at the stake was deserved
by all

01:07:34.520 --> 01:07:40.400
the Sebastianists through this serious
warning to the public.

01:07:40.400 --> 01:07:44.400
Macedo seems to be explicitly about
subjecting

01:07:44.400 --> 01:07:48.400
the Sebastianists to an auto-da-fé and
condemning

01:07:48.400 --> 01:07:51.760
them directly to die at the stake.

01:07:52.560 --> 01:07:56.560
In conclusion, the work, after scenes
that express

01:07:56.560 --> 01:08:00.560
a partly questionable humor of fury and
the use

01:08:00.560 --> 01:08:04.560
of violence, the author's aggressive
style,

01:08:04.560 --> 01:08:09.120
evident in much of the work, reaches its
climax here.

01:08:11.960 --> 01:08:15.960
Let us now advance the second most

01:08:15.960 --> 01:08:20.760
fought work by Antonio Pereira de
Figueiredo.

01:08:21.800 --> 01:08:25.800
The information and bibliography

01:08:25.800 --> 01:08:30.280
that we have about him is very scarce.

01:08:30.640 --> 01:08:34.640
First of all, it is important not to
confuse him with another

01:08:34.640 --> 01:08:38.640
author with a namesake from the 18th
century, according

01:08:38.640 --> 01:08:42.320
to the digital catalog of the National
Library of

01:08:42.320 --> 01:08:45.320
Portugal, which holds three of his works.

01:08:45.320 --> 01:08:48.080
Our author lived a little later.

01:08:48.080 --> 01:08:51.840
It seems that he was a man with a great
interest in contemporary everyday

01:08:51.840 --> 01:08:53.760
politics in Portugal.

01:08:53.760 --> 01:08:57.760
Perhaps by holding some political office
himself,

01:08:57.760 --> 01:09:01.560
especially regarding the liberal
revolution and the consequences it

01:09:01.560 --> 01:09:03.480
brought.

01:09:04.280 --> 01:09:07.760
This is demonstrated by two of the three
texts

01:09:07.760 --> 01:09:10.760
preserved in the National Library.

01:09:12.080 --> 01:09:15.520
Yes, he was as much a defender of the
constitutional

01:09:15.520 --> 01:09:18.520
monarchy as he was an adversary of the
Sebastians.

01:09:18.520 --> 01:09:19.000
Lists.

01:09:22.080 --> 01:09:25.080
According to the

01:09:25.360 --> 01:09:29.360
According to the digital catalog of the
National

01:09:29.360 --> 01:09:33.360
Library of Portugal, Figaredo's text, A
Literary

01:09:33.360 --> 01:09:37.360
Dialogue, presents an adaptation of a
manuscript

01:09:37.360 --> 01:09:41.360
by an Anonymous Piense, entitled A
Portuguese

01:09:41.360 --> 01:09:45.360
Dialogue from the beginning of the 19th
century,

01:09:45.360 --> 01:09:49.360
which in turn appears to be a copy of an
original,

01:09:49.360 --> 01:09:52.960
also a manuscript, probably from the 17th
century.

01:09:53.880 --> 01:09:57.880
Undoubtedly, the author had good reasons
for resorting

01:09:57.880 --> 01:10:01.880
to that text, considering his own
intentions, not

01:10:01.880 --> 01:10:05.880
only from a thematic point of view, but
also because

01:10:05.880 --> 01:10:09.880
of the dialogic structure that is very
suitable to

01:10:09.880 --> 01:10:13.200
give impetus to the ideological
confrontation

01:10:13.200 --> 01:10:16.200
that is addressed in the work.

01:10:17.080 --> 01:10:19.600
The composition of the work is very
simple.

01:10:19.600 --> 01:10:23.600
There is an introduction in which a
narrative distance sets out the

01:10:23.600 --> 01:10:26.880
motives of the book and writes, describes
the circumstances

01:10:26.880 --> 01:10:29.880
of the conversation and summarizes its
content.

01:10:30.520 --> 01:10:34.360
This is followed by a dialogue that leads
to four conclusions.

01:10:35.520 --> 01:10:39.520
The characters who are talking are three
male interlocutors

01:10:39.520 --> 01:10:43.960
with their own names, namely, about
Aurelio, an old man.

01:10:43.960 --> 01:10:45.760
Sebastian. Clever, erudite.

01:10:45.760 --> 01:10:47.680
Doctor of Law.

01:10:47.680 --> 01:10:51.680
Claudio, a liberal and the main
interlocutor

01:10:51.680 --> 01:10:55.680
of Aurelio and Leonardo, acts as an

01:10:55.680 --> 01:10:59.680
intermediary, but in the end proves to

01:10:59.680 --> 01:11:05.400
be a defender of the liberal
constitutional monarchy.

01:11:06.440 --> 01:11:10.440
At the same time, it appears to be the
author's

01:11:10.440 --> 01:11:14.120
main position, apart from that of
Claudius.

01:11:16.120 --> 01:11:19.600
As can be seen from the way they relate
to each other.

01:11:19.600 --> 01:11:23.600
The three interlocutors not only know
each other, but

01:11:23.600 --> 01:11:27.600
are good friends, so the atmosphere of
the conversation

01:11:27.600 --> 01:11:31.600
is generally good, but quite heated in
terms of the

01:11:31.600 --> 01:11:34.960
dialogic and argumentative development.

01:11:34.960 --> 01:11:38.960
On the one hand, it is observed that the
readers accompany

01:11:38.960 --> 01:11:42.960
the interlocutors from the beginning,
since the

01:11:42.960 --> 01:11:46.120
characters first greet each other and

01:11:46.120 --> 01:11:49.120
exchange courtesies throughout the
dialogue.

01:11:49.920 --> 01:11:53.920
On the other hand, it is noticeable that
the parts of the

01:11:53.920 --> 01:11:58.880
conversation are quite disproportionate,
while Aurelio talks a lot, a whole lot.

01:11:59.240 --> 01:12:01.200
Pages and pages.

01:12:01.200 --> 01:12:06.160
Claudio constantly attacks him verbally,
but with concise words.

01:12:06.800 --> 01:12:10.800
Thus, Aurelio presents his Sebastiana
philosophy,

01:12:10.800 --> 01:12:14.520
in quotation marks, with great
self-confidence

01:12:14.520 --> 01:12:17.520
and remains firm in his principles.

01:12:17.520 --> 01:12:18.200
Providence.

01:12:18.200 --> 01:12:21.640
Lists regarding the Portuguese monarchy
and the Kingdom.

01:12:22.600 --> 01:12:27.920
To support his arguments, he refers to
numerous authors from past centuries.

01:12:28.760 --> 01:12:29.280
Claudio.

01:12:29.280 --> 01:12:30.000
However.

01:12:30.000 --> 01:12:33.680
He is not swayed by the old man's lengthy
speeches.

01:12:34.240 --> 01:12:37.800
The liberal keeps asking questions, but

01:12:37.800 --> 01:12:40.800
Aurelio firmly defends his point of view.

01:12:40.920 --> 01:12:44.920
After a long battle of words, Claudius
acknowledges the

01:12:44.920 --> 01:12:48.920
soundness of Aurelius's reasoning, his
erudition, and his

01:12:48.920 --> 01:12:52.600
intellectual equality, but makes it clear
that he will

01:12:52.600 --> 01:12:55.600
never become a follower of Sebastian
himself.

01:12:56.320 --> 01:13:00.320
Leonardo, who until now has only
intervened

01:13:00.320 --> 01:13:04.320
sporadically, will not take a position
until the end

01:13:04.320 --> 01:13:09.960
of the dialogue and he will be the one to
tip the debate in favor of the liberals.

01:13:14.560 --> 01:13:18.560
Let us now look at some fragments of the
work that clearly

01:13:18.560 --> 01:13:21.760
illustrate the view contrary to Sebastian
himself.

01:13:21.800 --> 01:13:25.240
In much of the fictional conversation, it
is Claudio.

01:13:25.240 --> 01:13:28.720
As I have already mentioned, whoever
defames

01:13:28.720 --> 01:13:31.720
and even insults offensively about it.

01:13:31.720 --> 01:13:35.920
And to the rest of the defenders of the
messianic belief.

01:13:37.000 --> 01:13:38.440
Herein

01:13:38.440 --> 01:13:42.440
The statement we see here describes
Sebastianists as people

01:13:42.440 --> 01:13:46.440
who, on the one hand, do not usually
enjoy a good reputation among

01:13:46.440 --> 01:13:50.440
some contemporary thinkers and who, on
the other hand, have their

01:13:50.440 --> 01:13:54.440
minds set on the past, without rejoicing
in the current political

01:13:54.440 --> 01:13:58.440
situation and without showing respect for
the progress and

01:13:58.440 --> 01:14:01.520
achievements of the society in which they
live.

01:14:02.800 --> 01:14:06.800
This will lead Claudio to describe
Sebastianism

01:14:06.800 --> 01:14:12.080
as a disease and its defenders as madmen,
all in a satirical way.

01:14:12.080 --> 01:14:16.080
He expresses his concern to his friend
Sebastian Ista, as he is

01:14:16.080 --> 01:14:19.720
convinced that he will soon find him
interned in a mental asylum.

01:14:20.560 --> 01:14:24.560
The accusation that Sebastianists live
mentally in a

01:14:24.560 --> 01:14:28.840
remote past is also evident in their most
everyday customs.

01:14:29.400 --> 01:14:32.400
By rejecting anything new or modern.

01:14:33.360 --> 01:14:37.360
This becomes clear when the three

01:14:37.360 --> 01:14:41.360
interlocutors pause before entering

01:14:41.360 --> 01:14:45.360
into the discussion, talking about

01:14:45.360 --> 01:14:50.640
tobacco and snuff, offering each other
and see here.

01:14:50.640 --> 01:14:54.000
Here's Aurelio's reaction when

01:14:54.000 --> 01:14:57.000
he says "rape name for sale".

01:14:57.000 --> 01:14:59.920
This Sebastian is here.

01:14:59.920 --> 01:15:03.920
Although monkfish was already known in
Portugal before the 19th century

01:15:03.920 --> 01:15:07.000
and was not yet consumed in the time of
King Sebastian.

01:15:07.440 --> 01:15:09.520
With this behavior from Aurelio.

01:15:09.520 --> 01:15:13.200
The author's intention is to humorously
illustrate the

01:15:13.200 --> 01:15:16.200
exaggerated conservatism of the
Sebastianists.

01:15:19.480 --> 01:15:22.360
Throughout the dialogue.

01:15:22.360 --> 01:15:27.440
Claudio uses different strategies to
convince Aurelio. Huh?

01:15:27.880 --> 01:15:29.440
Let's see. Two.

01:15:29.440 --> 01:15:32.280
Thus, on the one hand, he tries to
convince him by appealing to his common

01:15:32.280 --> 01:15:33.720
sense.

01:15:34.000 --> 01:15:38.000
On the other hand, he tries to steer him
away from his messianic

01:15:38.000 --> 01:15:42.000
beliefs, reprimanding him for being, in
his opinion, a bad

01:15:42.000 --> 01:15:46.000
Christian and for the senselessness of
his fanciful desires,

01:15:46.000 --> 01:15:50.800
since it was God himself who made the
decision to change destiny.

01:15:51.200 --> 01:15:55.200
However, even this rhetorical question
that we see here

01:15:55.200 --> 01:15:58.640
in the second quote is not enough to
convince.

01:15:58.640 --> 01:16:01.920
Now it is the flirt who shortly
afterwards

01:16:01.920 --> 01:16:04.920
begins to explain his arguments in
detail.

01:16:05.040 --> 01:16:09.040
Only in the last of the four conclusions

01:16:09.040 --> 01:16:13.040
given by Leonardo is the irrationality
and

01:16:13.040 --> 01:16:17.040
folly of Sebastianism and its followers

01:16:17.040 --> 01:16:21.040
vehemently affirmed, although some of
them

01:16:21.040 --> 01:16:25.040
are undeniably perceptive and
knowledgeable

01:16:25.040 --> 01:16:28.880
about the history of their country.

01:16:28.880 --> 01:16:32.880
All they do is talk a lot and interpret
texts from ancient

01:16:32.880 --> 01:16:36.880
times according to their own criteria,
turning their

01:16:36.880 --> 01:16:40.880
ideal into vain hopes, into a deception,
into a fallacy

01:16:40.880 --> 01:16:44.600
that has nothing to do with future
political reality.

01:16:45.600 --> 01:16:49.800
All of this leads Leonardo to clear the
old man's mind.

01:16:50.240 --> 01:16:54.240
Finally, the ideal of constitutional
monarchy is

01:16:54.240 --> 01:16:58.360
evoked under the following motto: Long
live religion!

01:16:58.360 --> 01:17:01.360
Long live the Constitution! Long live the
King!

01:17:01.600 --> 01:17:05.080
With this motto the dialogue ends and the
readers are faced with an abrupt ending

01:17:05.080 --> 01:17:06.840
to the work.

01:17:06.840 --> 01:17:10.840
In other words, the conversation ends
immediately after

01:17:10.840 --> 01:17:14.800
Leonardo's words, and the characters
don't even say goodbye.

01:17:15.520 --> 01:17:19.520
This abrupt ending somewhat breaks the
authenticity of the fictional

01:17:19.520 --> 01:17:23.240
conversation and, therefore, the illusion
of the work.

01:17:23.760 --> 01:17:27.760
After the author has made an effort to
create it in the

01:17:27.760 --> 01:17:31.600
introduction and to maintain it
throughout the dialogue.

01:17:32.200 --> 01:17:36.200
Furthermore, although it is reasonable to
assume, it

01:17:36.200 --> 01:17:40.200
is not known for certain whether Aurelius
was truly

01:17:40.200 --> 01:17:44.200
swayed in his position, that is, whether
he was convinced

01:17:44.200 --> 01:17:48.200
by Leonardo's opinion, since at the end
of the work the

01:17:48.200 --> 01:17:52.200
author does not give him any more space
to react, but it

01:17:52.200 --> 01:17:55.360
is reasonable to assume that he was.

01:17:56.760 --> 01:17:59.760
Okay.

01:18:00.680 --> 01:18:04.480
I would like to conclude my presentation
with some final considerations.

01:18:04.600 --> 01:18:08.600
It can be seen that that ideological
confrontation, the

01:18:08.600 --> 01:18:12.600
so-called basic war and the literary
works of the first quarter

01:18:12.600 --> 01:18:16.600
of the 19th century demonstrate, on the
one hand, the continuity

01:18:16.600 --> 01:18:20.600
of Sebastian himself and the
controversies that accompanied

01:18:20.600 --> 01:18:24.560
him even more than 200 years after the
defeat of Alcácer.

01:18:24.560 --> 01:18:25.600
To want.

01:18:25.600 --> 01:18:29.600
On the other hand, they bear witness not
only to

01:18:29.600 --> 01:18:33.600
the loyalty, or, based on the two works
analyzed,

01:18:33.600 --> 01:18:37.600
to the aversion to the desired king or
the cult,

01:18:37.600 --> 01:18:41.600
but also to the enduring nature of
elements that

01:18:41.600 --> 01:18:45.600
originally constituted the messianic
movement

01:18:45.600 --> 01:18:49.600
at the end of the 16th century and
throughout the

01:18:49.600 --> 01:18:54.880
17th century, adapted to the
circumstances of the Napoleonic era.

01:18:54.880 --> 01:18:57.880
or Napoleonic.

01:18:58.320 --> 01:19:02.320
Analyzing this conflict in writing in a
more general

01:19:02.320 --> 01:19:06.320
context reveals different ways of
addressing the

01:19:06.320 --> 01:19:10.320
question of one's own identity,
especially in times

01:19:10.320 --> 01:19:14.320
of crisis, as well as the clash of two
ideological

01:19:14.320 --> 01:19:20.200
fronts at a time when the country was in
a phase of changing values ​​and ideals.

01:19:20.360 --> 01:19:25.560
On one hand, concepts such as
conservatism, religiosity, and tradition.

01:19:25.560 --> 01:19:28.920
On the other hand, liberalism,
progressivism, and reason.

01:19:30.240 --> 01:19:34.240
In the two works analyzed, we find quite
clear arguments

01:19:34.240 --> 01:19:38.240
for why the admirers or defenders of
Sebastian himself

01:19:38.240 --> 01:19:42.240
should abandon those erroneous
convictions, which,

01:19:42.240 --> 01:19:46.240
considering the era in which they lived,
were inappropriate

01:19:46.240 --> 01:19:49.400
and even shameful for the entire nation.

01:19:49.600 --> 01:19:53.600
In this context, the two authors present
partly

01:19:53.600 --> 01:19:59.400
similar arguments to convince viewers and
readers respectively.

01:19:59.880 --> 01:20:05.720
They also differ in part with regard to
style.

01:20:07.280 --> 01:20:09.800
Literary style.

01:20:09.800 --> 01:20:13.800
Thus, while Macedo mainly resorts to
insults and

01:20:13.800 --> 01:20:17.800
violence to convey his anti-Sebastián
vision.

01:20:17.800 --> 01:20:23.600
This one does seek dialogue with the
affected party, in quotes.

01:20:24.000 --> 01:20:27.040
A dialogue that was both rational and
decisive.

01:20:28.240 --> 01:20:32.240
Although the return of John VI and the
establishment

01:20:32.240 --> 01:20:36.240
of the constitutional monarchy led to a
lessening of

01:20:36.240 --> 01:20:41.840
messianic hopes and therefore also of the
ideological conflict presented.

01:20:42.400 --> 01:20:46.400
The hostile discourse of the
anti-Sebastians, who formed in the

01:20:46.400 --> 01:20:51.640
first quarter of the 19th century, failed
to eradicate the phenomenon or the myth.

01:20:52.400 --> 01:20:56.400
Thus, in the tenth and twentieth
centuries, the

01:20:56.400 --> 01:21:00.000
Tsarist Sala regime continued to use it
as a

01:21:00.000 --> 01:21:03.000
political instrument against democracy.

01:21:03.000 --> 01:21:07.000
Liberalism, as a folkloric element of
Portuguese

01:21:07.000 --> 01:21:10.360
culture, has survived to this day.

01:21:11.200 --> 01:21:14.200
Thank you so much.

01:21:17.680 --> 01:21:19.320
Thank you very much, Oliver.

01:21:19.320 --> 01:21:23.320
Sebastian is undoubtedly one of the

01:21:23.320 --> 01:21:27.320
important topics within Portuguese

01:21:27.320 --> 01:21:32.520
historiography, not only from 16-17, as
you have placed it.

01:21:32.520 --> 01:21:36.320
If not the famous songs of Bandar to
Father Vieira,

01:21:36.320 --> 01:21:39.320
etc., how else can this all come
together?

01:21:39.480 --> 01:21:40.960
And that's where it's very important.

01:21:40.960 --> 01:21:44.960
Some authors such as Roca Tallada, such

01:21:44.960 --> 01:21:48.400
as Vilanova, etc., did not include

01:21:48.400 --> 01:21:51.400
The rescued triad of Vilanova.

01:21:51.480 --> 01:21:55.480
And as that has been shown to us, as that
is

01:21:55.480 --> 01:21:59.480
received, as that is received in the 19th

01:21:59.480 --> 01:22:04.960
century,2 texts precisely anti Sebastian
ISTAS in.

01:22:04.960 --> 01:22:10.080
Therefore, I don't know if we have one
question or two in

01:22:10.440 --> 01:22:13.440
We have two in

01:22:14.440 --> 01:22:17.680
Constituent themes of Spanish and

01:22:17.680 --> 01:22:20.680
Portuguese cultures. Right?

01:22:21.280 --> 01:22:24.160
Neuroticism and Sebastianism.

01:22:24.160 --> 01:22:28.160
If we were to choose two important

01:22:28.160 --> 01:22:32.160
topics in both countries,

01:22:32.160 --> 01:22:36.400
these would surely be them.

01:22:36.400 --> 01:22:41.120
Which ultimately leaves us with a table.

01:22:41.120 --> 01:22:44.120
Very.

01:22:46.840 --> 01:22:51.960
Fertile ground for the questions and
reflections we expect.

01:22:52.160 --> 01:22:55.160
Now.

01:22:57.600 --> 01:23:01.240
Can you hear me? I just saw, I think, a

01:23:01.240 --> 01:23:04.240
comment from Carlos Mata in the chat.

01:23:04.240 --> 01:23:06.000
I don't know if that's a question.

01:23:06.000 --> 01:23:07.720
Now I'll get it back.

01:23:07.720 --> 01:23:11.080
I wanted to congratulate Alejandro first
of all for.

01:23:11.320 --> 01:23:14.560
I believe that his intervention hits the
nail

01:23:14.560 --> 01:23:17.560
on the head regarding two essential
issues.

01:23:17.560 --> 01:23:21.600
First comes the thematic choice, not the
decisive ones.

01:23:22.360 --> 01:23:24.640
uh, like

01:23:24.640 --> 01:23:28.640
Other characters, themes, or motifs—I'm

01:23:28.640 --> 01:23:32.640
referring to characters like El Cid or

01:23:32.640 --> 01:23:36.640
the Reconquista or other aspects of

01:23:36.640 --> 01:23:40.640
the coexistence of the three religions

01:23:40.640 --> 01:23:44.640
that have been brought up so many times

01:23:44.640 --> 01:23:48.640
in the novel—I think deserve a systematic

01:23:48.640 --> 01:23:52.640
study as a whole about what is recovered,

01:23:52.640 --> 01:23:56.120
how it is recovered, and with what

01:23:56.120 --> 01:23:59.120
intentions.

01:23:59.320 --> 01:24:03.320
When these issues are brought into

01:24:03.320 --> 01:24:07.320
literature, it is for the mere desire,

01:24:07.320 --> 01:24:12.040
for the mere intention of creating
literature.

01:24:12.040 --> 01:24:14.800
There's an intention behind it.

01:24:14.800 --> 01:24:18.800
What is the vision offered of these and

01:24:18.800 --> 01:24:22.800
these motives, of these, of these topics,

01:24:22.800 --> 01:24:26.800
uh, mythologized, demystifying, how

01:24:26.800 --> 01:24:30.480
is the character viewed, uh, etc.

01:24:30.480 --> 01:24:33.480
That's one thing, one part.

01:24:33.600 --> 01:24:37.600
And then Professor Alejandro de la

01:24:37.600 --> 01:24:41.040
Fuente also spoke about how these

01:24:41.040 --> 01:24:44.040
authors had them at hand.

01:24:44.280 --> 01:24:48.200
The chronicles could have used that
historical documentation, but they did

01:24:48.200 --> 01:24:50.200
not.

01:24:50.200 --> 01:24:54.200
And I think it's an intelligent
observation

01:24:54.200 --> 01:24:58.200
because it's sometimes useful to revisit
the

01:24:58.200 --> 01:25:02.200
19th-century novel or 19th-century
theater,

01:25:02.200 --> 01:25:06.200
etc., because I think that on some
occasion one

01:25:06.200 --> 01:25:09.880
has an opinion or a certain something.

01:25:12.080 --> 01:25:16.080
Incorrect about that first historical

01:25:16.080 --> 01:25:20.080
novel, not as if it was a more historical

01:25:20.080 --> 01:25:24.080
novel or with a higher basis of
documentation

01:25:24.080 --> 01:25:28.080
than it actually had, taking away the

01:25:28.080 --> 01:25:32.080
works with an archaeological intention

01:25:32.080 --> 01:25:35.680
that there were also.

01:25:35.960 --> 01:25:39.960
The intention when diving into the past
was clearly

01:25:39.960 --> 01:25:43.520
different; perhaps it hit the nail on the
head.

01:25:43.520 --> 01:25:46.720
Larra explained it very well in the
prologue to the hotel of De Enrique el

01:25:46.720 --> 01:25:48.360
Doliente.

01:25:48.360 --> 01:25:52.360
We have extracted this chronicle from old

01:25:52.360 --> 01:25:56.800
texts, from old manuscripts, from old
authors.

01:25:57.080 --> 01:26:00.640
But we don't aim for reality, but

01:26:00.640 --> 01:26:03.640
rather to be believable.

01:26:03.640 --> 01:26:06.000
If it didn't happen, it could have
happened.

01:26:06.000 --> 01:26:10.000
That is, a search for verisimilitude, to
give a few

01:26:10.000 --> 01:26:15.400
brushstrokes of the period, but which in
any case were very, very free.

01:26:15.680 --> 01:26:19.680
The novel, the one about the Doncel, is a
historical

01:26:19.680 --> 01:26:23.680
novel because historical novels at the
time were

01:26:23.680 --> 01:26:27.680
just that, but they did not have an
attachment to the

01:26:27.680 --> 01:26:32.920
facts or an intention to document them in
any way exhaustively.

01:26:32.920 --> 01:26:38.120
So I think one writer has done two, both
for what has brought us here as prey.

01:26:38.120 --> 01:26:42.120
Pinceladas seems very clever and

01:26:42.120 --> 01:26:45.600
necessary to start the day.

01:26:49.320 --> 01:26:51.240
Yes, well thank you very much Antonio.

01:26:51.240 --> 01:26:55.240
I think that what you've said about
sometimes not, I

01:26:55.240 --> 01:26:59.240
don't know if it's a perception, I also
share it, about

01:26:59.240 --> 01:27:03.240
that demonization or that criticism that
there is often

01:27:03.240 --> 01:27:08.840
towards the novel, towards historical
genre literature in the 19th century.

01:27:09.320 --> 01:27:13.320
And in the 19th century something very
interesting happens in

01:27:13.320 --> 01:27:17.320
the Spanish case, and that is that we do
not have a Herculaneum

01:27:17.320 --> 01:27:21.320
figure to call that father of scientific
historiography, as in

01:27:21.320 --> 01:27:25.200
Portugal, well, it would begin with a
Herculaneum figure who then has his

01:27:25.200 --> 01:27:27.160
school, his followers.

01:27:27.160 --> 01:27:30.520
I believe Professor San Martín also
mentioned this earlier.

01:27:30.880 --> 01:27:34.000
Perhaps I would start, or could start,
with.

01:27:34.440 --> 01:27:38.440
Although this, of course, can be debated
with Altamira,

01:27:38.440 --> 01:27:42.440
because the one who is often referred to
as the father of

01:27:42.440 --> 01:27:46.400
scientific historiography would be
Modesto Lafuente.

01:27:46.400 --> 01:27:50.400
But of course, Modesto Lafuente would
also be

01:27:50.400 --> 01:27:54.400
somewhat halfway between that
emotionality,

01:27:54.400 --> 01:27:58.400
sentimentality, and romanticism of
Zorrilla and

01:27:58.400 --> 01:28:02.560
what would be a more critical discernment
of the sources.

01:28:02.800 --> 01:28:06.640
So, what am I getting at with all this
that we're saying?

01:28:06.640 --> 01:28:09.640
Well, there is criticism of the
19th-century historical novel.

01:28:10.000 --> 01:28:15.000
We would have to analyze why as well,
but, but science, history.

01:28:15.880 --> 01:28:19.880
In that sense, if the criticism is
directed towards the

01:28:19.880 --> 01:28:23.880
historical novel, it is directed towards
the question

01:28:23.880 --> 01:28:27.880
of purism or towards archival rigor, eh
Of course,

01:28:27.880 --> 01:28:31.880
historical science at that moment, at the
moment in

01:28:31.880 --> 01:28:34.960
which it is published, eh Zorrilla's book

01:28:34.960 --> 01:28:37.960
and many others, we are talking about
1843.

01:28:38.320 --> 01:28:42.320
Of course, historical science does not
live up to what we understand by that

01:28:42.320 --> 01:28:46.520
rigor or that modern science, or more,
that more contemporary science of today.

01:28:46.840 --> 01:28:49.880
So, I think that's interesting and it
certainly opens up a lot of room for

01:28:49.880 --> 01:28:51.400
debate.

01:28:51.560 --> 01:28:55.560
And then, regarding what you were saying
about the Gothic

01:28:55.560 --> 01:28:59.560
myth, well, I think that beyond the issue
of demystifying

01:28:59.560 --> 01:29:03.560
myths, which can also be very laudable
and very legitimate,

01:29:03.560 --> 01:29:07.560
what is also interesting, or at least
what interests me in

01:29:07.560 --> 01:29:10.840
particular, is the adaptability that
these myths have had since their

01:29:10.840 --> 01:29:12.520
emergence.

01:29:12.880 --> 01:29:16.880
Yes, as I said strictly speaking, we
could

01:29:16.880 --> 01:29:20.200
talk about Isidore of Seville or 711,

01:29:20.200 --> 01:29:23.200
if you will, up to the present day.

01:29:23.200 --> 01:29:27.000
Because when you analyze that myth in
depth, it goes

01:29:27.000 --> 01:29:30.000
far beyond political considerations.

01:29:30.400 --> 01:29:34.400
Of course, the Gothic past has been used
to justify political

01:29:34.400 --> 01:29:37.440
actions, and that has probably been one
of them.

01:29:37.440 --> 01:29:40.760
That has been the predominant use, its
basic use.

01:29:41.080 --> 01:29:45.680
But it's also worth getting into the
nuances.

01:29:45.680 --> 01:29:49.680
What's interesting, and I think what's
truly relevant, is

01:29:49.680 --> 01:29:53.680
to delve deeper into each era within that
context and also see

01:29:53.680 --> 01:29:57.680
that this Gothic myth or this
neuroticism, if in general

01:29:57.680 --> 01:30:01.680
terms, without alluding to the Gothic
myth, is also linked

01:30:01.680 --> 01:30:05.840
to the artistic, it is also linked to the
cultural, to the ethnic.

01:30:05.840 --> 01:30:11.320
We used to talk about the question of
virtues, the question of nobility.

01:30:11.920 --> 01:30:15.560
That is to say, we are Goths, we
Spaniards who have something of the Goths

01:30:15.560 --> 01:30:17.400
are not Goths.

01:30:17.560 --> 01:30:21.560
These are issues that arose in the 19th
century, but to this

01:30:21.560 --> 01:30:25.560
day, even today, in some veiled or
fictionalized way, these

01:30:25.560 --> 01:30:31.160
questions continue to be raised, and not
only from a political point of view.

01:30:32.080 --> 01:30:36.080
Another matter entirely, and this would
certainly warrant

01:30:36.080 --> 01:30:40.080
another conference, is analyzing those
historical novels

01:30:40.080 --> 01:30:44.080
that originate from Visigothic Spain
because they also draw

01:30:44.080 --> 01:30:48.080
from these texts we have seen today, but
also from a much earlier

01:30:48.080 --> 01:30:52.080
Neo-Gothic tradition. I understand that
these historical

01:30:52.080 --> 01:30:56.080
novels also seek to connect that past
with the present and

01:30:56.080 --> 01:31:00.080
speak to us about ourselves, to say what
has been the survival

01:31:00.080 --> 01:31:04.360
of the Goths, what survives of that
Gothic identity in us.

01:31:04.360 --> 01:31:04.600
So?

01:31:04.600 --> 01:31:07.800
Well, that could be interesting too, and
I think it's

01:31:07.800 --> 01:31:10.800
worth analyzing from a social science
point of view.

01:31:11.200 --> 01:31:13.640
In other words, no, I couldn't agree
more.

01:31:13.640 --> 01:31:17.640
That's why I was telling you about

01:31:17.640 --> 01:31:21.640
the need for a systematic study on

01:31:21.640 --> 01:31:25.640
the matter. I've sent you about

01:31:25.640 --> 01:31:29.640
fifty novels to your email, so I

01:31:29.640 --> 01:31:32.880
entrust you with that study.

01:31:32.920 --> 01:31:36.640
Yes, I understand that he has the
foundation; he is the right person to do

01:31:36.640 --> 01:31:38.520
it.

01:31:38.560 --> 01:31:42.560
Furthermore, Professor Mateo Induráin had
made a note

01:31:42.560 --> 01:31:46.200
regarding some bibliographic references
for.

01:31:46.760 --> 01:31:50.760
For Professor Leira, who had to leave us
because he had class

01:31:50.760 --> 01:31:54.760
as he said, but we will provide him with
his information by

01:31:54.760 --> 01:31:58.120
email, and we give many thanks to
Professor Matta for being with us this

01:31:58.120 --> 01:31:59.840
morning.

01:32:00.240 --> 01:32:04.240
And if Professor Barros San Martín Barros
has nothing

01:32:04.240 --> 01:32:08.560
more to add, does he want to say
something else, huh?

01:32:08.600 --> 01:32:10.360
We're closed. What do you think?

01:32:10.360 --> 01:32:13.760
I wanted a couple of things, especially
for.

01:32:13.760 --> 01:32:18.600
For Oliver in, uh, uh.

01:32:19.840 --> 01:32:20.800
Sure, uh.

01:32:20.800 --> 01:32:26.360
Sebastianism in Portugal has a vigor.

01:32:27.440 --> 01:32:30.760
Huh, big, huh? Mmm.

01:32:31.440 --> 01:32:37.080
Similar to what Antonio and Alejandro
were talking about.

01:32:37.080 --> 01:32:40.080
But, uh.

01:32:41.160 --> 01:32:45.160
Why do you think that in this 19th
century,

01:32:45.160 --> 01:32:50.200
uh, these anti-Sebastian ideas appeared?

01:32:50.200 --> 01:32:53.840
In other words, because those two works
that you, that you're talking about,

01:32:54.480 --> 01:32:57.160
uh, they try to

01:32:57.160 --> 01:33:01.240
to combat Sebastianism.

01:33:02.320 --> 01:33:06.320
And then, of course, despite all this,
socialism

01:33:06.320 --> 01:33:09.320
is still something that has been used

01:33:09.320 --> 01:33:12.320
to this day, unlike neuroticism.

01:33:12.320 --> 01:33:15.080
So, huh? Why is that?

01:33:15.080 --> 01:33:19.960
Let's see if you can explain, okay? Yes,
yes.

01:33:19.960 --> 01:33:21.000
Thank you for the question.

01:33:21.000 --> 01:33:23.640
That's a very good question. Huh?

01:33:23.640 --> 01:33:26.640
Me. It seems to me that.

01:33:26.760 --> 01:33:30.160
It has to do with different, different
reasons.

01:33:30.160 --> 01:33:33.120
The first one will surely be that.

01:33:33.120 --> 01:33:34.400
What, what?

01:33:34.400 --> 01:33:38.400
Did something like a Sebastian-ism

01:33:38.400 --> 01:33:42.400
form, and scholarly works also in

01:33:42.400 --> 01:33:46.400
favor of Sebastian himself, having

01:33:46.400 --> 01:33:49.840
messianic hopes and such?

01:33:50.800 --> 01:33:53.440
uh and during

01:33:53.440 --> 01:33:57.440
Especially during these years of crisis,

01:33:57.440 --> 01:34:01.440
when the French invasions were taking
place,

01:34:01.440 --> 01:34:05.560
these works were also published, right?

01:34:05.560 --> 01:34:09.560
And some intellectual authors

01:34:09.560 --> 01:34:13.560
with, well, with different,

01:34:13.560 --> 01:34:17.560
with different, political

01:34:17.560 --> 01:34:21.640
interests, so to speak.

01:34:22.640 --> 01:34:26.640
It seems that they were in a

01:34:26.640 --> 01:34:30.640
situation or position of

01:34:30.640 --> 01:34:34.640
defending their position by

01:34:34.640 --> 01:34:38.640
criticizing these vain hopes,

01:34:38.640 --> 01:34:43.160
this stupidity, this irrationalism.

01:34:44.080 --> 01:34:48.080
And it was also because of the time, that

01:34:48.080 --> 01:34:52.080
is, as I mentioned at the end of the

01:34:52.080 --> 01:34:56.080
presentation, the two, that is, the ideal

01:34:56.080 --> 01:35:00.080
values ​​or ideological fronts that we

01:35:00.080 --> 01:35:04.080
find in that time such as conservatism,

01:35:04.080 --> 01:35:08.080
religiosity, tradition versus liberalism,

01:35:08.080 --> 01:35:12.080
progressivism, reason, uh, it also has

01:35:12.080 --> 01:35:15.280
to do with this and it is interesting.

01:35:15.280 --> 01:35:16.840
I still have to look for it.

01:35:16.840 --> 01:35:22.120
Would I really be interested if the quote
I showed at the beginning...?

01:35:22.520 --> 01:35:27.080
ST What else could you expect from a
nation, huh?

01:35:27.400 --> 01:35:32.800
I haven't found this one by this French
philosopher yet.

01:35:32.800 --> 01:35:34.080
There are a lot of them.

01:35:34.080 --> 01:35:34.680
I mean, this one.

01:35:34.680 --> 01:35:38.520
This philosopher wrote a lot of

01:35:38.520 --> 01:35:41.520
books, uh, a whole library.

01:35:41.520 --> 01:35:44.560
And it would be very interesting to find
this quote as well.

01:35:45.280 --> 01:35:46.120
His mmm.

01:35:46.120 --> 01:35:50.120
I don't know if it's in a letter, eh, I

01:35:50.120 --> 01:35:53.760
haven't found it from him yet, eh?

01:35:53.760 --> 01:35:57.760
But one also sees a cultural and

01:35:57.760 --> 01:36:03.040
philosophical orientation towards France.

01:36:03.400 --> 01:36:06.080
which is noticeable,

01:36:07.640 --> 01:36:11.640
It became increasingly strong at the end
of the 17th

01:36:11.640 --> 01:36:15.640
century, after the time of the Iberian
Union, but especially

01:36:15.640 --> 01:36:19.640
from the 18th century onwards, that is,
the orientation

01:36:19.640 --> 01:36:22.960
of Portuguese intellectuals towards
France.

01:36:23.680 --> 01:36:27.680
And that's why there are no,

01:36:27.680 --> 01:36:32.720
no, uh, no, uh, no coincidences

01:36:33.400 --> 01:36:36.400
that it be a

01:36:36.520 --> 01:36:39.600
A French philosopher, huh?

01:36:40.000 --> 01:36:41.680
What is

01:36:41.680 --> 01:36:45.680
which is cited in this context, since
these anti-Sebastian

01:36:45.680 --> 01:36:48.760
authors seem to have also really had,

01:36:50.040 --> 01:36:53.040
Huh? Well, huh

01:36:53.920 --> 01:36:57.920
They saw it as also as a common good, as
a

01:36:57.920 --> 01:37:01.920
good for the State to think or leave
these,

01:37:01.920 --> 01:37:05.920
uh these erroneous thoughts, erroneous

01:37:05.920 --> 01:37:09.920
from another era, from some remote

01:37:09.920 --> 01:37:14.800
centuries, and orient themselves towards
uh.

01:37:16.840 --> 01:37:20.840
Yes, then, in the direction of liberal

01:37:20.840 --> 01:37:24.840
progressivism, or in the case of

01:37:24.840 --> 01:37:28.840
Macedo, towards the current monarchy,

01:37:28.840 --> 01:37:33.640
that is, the one of the moment, right?

01:37:33.680 --> 01:37:37.680
In other words, he doesn't run away,

01:37:37.680 --> 01:37:41.680
because having such hopes for a savior

01:37:41.680 --> 01:37:45.400
is also a type of escapism, it seems to
me.

01:37:47.080 --> 01:37:49.480
having,

01:37:49.480 --> 01:37:52.480
Well, uh.

01:37:52.480 --> 01:37:55.760
Mmm, uh, I mean,

01:37:55.760 --> 01:37:59.760
Because going, being able, even being
able

01:37:59.760 --> 01:38:03.760
to solve the current problems of that
time,

01:38:03.760 --> 01:38:06.880
only in another way, and not with

01:38:06.880 --> 01:38:09.880
hope or with bullets of hope in a

01:38:10.480 --> 01:38:13.480
in a uh,

01:38:13.800 --> 01:38:17.800
in a mythical savior, so to

01:38:17.800 --> 01:38:22.960
speak, a king from three centuries ago.

01:38:25.000 --> 01:38:25.960
Huh? Mmm.

01:38:25.960 --> 01:38:28.320
Am I going to answer you, huh?

01:38:28.320 --> 01:38:31.320
And that's how I connect with Alejandro.

01:38:31.800 --> 01:38:35.440
Look, Alejandro, I don't know if

01:38:35.440 --> 01:38:38.440
you agree or disagree, huh?

01:38:38.440 --> 01:38:41.600
Mmm mmm eh, eh.

01:38:41.680 --> 01:38:44.680
And so the reflection with Alejandro.

01:38:45.040 --> 01:38:47.320
Look at that, huh?

01:38:47.320 --> 01:38:51.760
I don't know if you disagree, huh?

01:38:54.880 --> 01:38:57.040
Well,

01:38:57.040 --> 01:38:58.720
I think it's okay now.

01:38:58.720 --> 01:39:01.840
So, negativity has been

01:39:01.840 --> 01:39:04.840
seen in Spain, huh?

01:39:04.880 --> 01:39:08.880
As part of that conservative religious

01:39:08.880 --> 01:39:13.200
structure that was showing us, huh?

01:39:13.760 --> 01:39:15.560
Not until today?

01:39:15.560 --> 01:39:19.560
So, from the beginning of our
conservative,

01:39:19.560 --> 01:39:24.760
religious upbringing, we were taught that

01:39:26.320 --> 01:39:29.320
when.

01:39:29.880 --> 01:39:33.880
Mmm, uh, when it is explained to us, when
it is

01:39:33.880 --> 01:39:37.880
explained to us how we have to read
Isidore, it

01:39:37.880 --> 01:39:41.760
is told to us when he is referring to
Spain.

01:39:41.800 --> 01:39:44.920
Is Hispania, as you want to call it,
being referred to from a geographical

01:39:44.920 --> 01:39:46.520
point of view?

01:39:46.960 --> 01:39:50.200
No, he's not referring to it from any
point of view.

01:39:50.560 --> 01:39:52.520
To put it more clearly.

01:39:52.520 --> 01:39:56.520
Over time, I've realized that's a

01:39:56.520 --> 01:40:00.520
misinterpretation, because what they want

01:40:00.520 --> 01:40:04.520
to avoid at all costs is something
starting

01:40:04.520 --> 01:40:08.080
there that they're worried might happen
later.

01:40:08.120 --> 01:40:13.400
In the 19th century, where they also deny
it, that it is the Spanish nation. Right?

01:40:15.760 --> 01:40:18.240
Sure, huh?

01:40:18.240 --> 01:40:21.240
When Isidore creates.

01:40:23.320 --> 01:40:26.320
The history of all the Goths, etc., is
not

01:40:26.320 --> 01:40:29.320
being created; only the Gothic people
create.

01:40:29.320 --> 01:40:30.160
It's not the first time.

01:40:30.160 --> 01:40:34.160
Spain, as Esparza and other conservatives
say, is indeed a

01:40:34.160 --> 01:40:38.440
kingdom that he endows with an identity,
and a Christian identity.

01:40:39.280 --> 01:40:41.480
And there's a mentality there.

01:40:41.480 --> 01:40:45.480
There is the recognition of a way of
thinking,

01:40:45.480 --> 01:40:49.480
ah, the recognition of a Gothic kingdom,

01:40:49.480 --> 01:40:53.480
etc., which we can then quickly see in
the

01:40:53.480 --> 01:40:56.760
Asturian chronicles, in all the

01:40:56.760 --> 01:40:59.760
Castilian chronicles, etc., etc.

01:41:00.360 --> 01:41:03.360
Until.

01:41:03.520 --> 01:41:06.520
What you've shown, right?

01:41:06.680 --> 01:41:08.360
So, uh.

01:41:08.360 --> 01:41:12.360
Well, we have been taught from that

01:41:12.360 --> 01:41:15.400
progressive, scientific,

01:41:15.400 --> 01:41:18.400
etc., position to deny.

01:41:18.440 --> 01:41:22.440
In other words, we're back to what we
were talking about at the

01:41:22.440 --> 01:41:25.600
beginning, how two elites, uh, deny us
the

01:41:25.600 --> 01:41:28.600
possibility of interpreting the sources
freely.

01:41:28.960 --> 01:41:32.640
Mhm. That is to say, we don't necessarily
have to see theology

01:41:32.640 --> 01:41:35.640
in the Goths, etc., but we do have to see
its use.

01:41:35.640 --> 01:41:38.280
And since the conservatives have
appropriated that neuroticism and since

01:41:38.280 --> 01:41:39.640
the

01:41:39.640 --> 01:41:42.600
others are going against that new
dynamism, I don't care about the opinion

01:41:42.600 --> 01:41:44.120
of either side.

01:41:44.160 --> 01:41:48.160
I think there's something more to it than
just a geographical

01:41:48.160 --> 01:41:51.400
issue, regardless of what they tell me,
right?

01:41:52.400 --> 01:41:55.640
And I think that the same thing happens a
bit with Sebastián Ismo.

01:41:55.640 --> 01:41:58.000
It is the creation of a series of
mindsets.

01:41:58.000 --> 01:42:02.000
And on another note, I also want to
congratulate Alejandro

01:42:02.000 --> 01:42:05.600
on, uh, the importance of Herculaneum,
right?

01:42:05.640 --> 01:42:09.840
He's an absolutely phenomenal author,
isn't he?

01:42:10.240 --> 01:42:16.160
And I want to ask you, is there a lot of
work on Herculaneum in Spain?

01:42:17.200 --> 01:42:19.560
And in Portugal, huh?

01:42:19.560 --> 01:42:20.120
Do they work on it?

01:42:20.120 --> 01:42:23.160
Because I get the impression that they
see him as a role model,

01:42:23.160 --> 01:42:26.160
But I don't know if.

01:42:26.680 --> 01:42:29.680
It was very well done. Wasn't it?

01:42:29.800 --> 01:42:30.800
And nothing more.

01:42:30.800 --> 01:42:35.920
That's kind of what I want to say too, in
response to what you were saying, Oliver.

01:42:36.120 --> 01:42:40.120
I mean, I think that many times those,
uh, progressives

01:42:40.120 --> 01:42:44.120
versus conservatives, religious versus
anti-religious,

01:42:44.120 --> 01:42:47.360
uh, all they do is place us in two camps,
uh?

01:42:47.480 --> 01:42:49.480
The one you have to assign yourself to,
right?

01:42:49.480 --> 01:42:52.000
And I get the impression that
Sebastianism is something more complex in

01:42:52.000 --> 01:42:53.280
the

01:42:53.280 --> 01:42:56.280
end than simply assigning oneself to one
side or the other.

01:42:56.440 --> 01:42:59.280
Just like neuroticism, although we want
to put it in a simpler way, it is

01:42:59.280 --> 01:43:00.720
something more complex.

01:43:05.440 --> 01:43:06.280
Yes. Mmm.

01:43:06.280 --> 01:43:10.280
Well, I don't know if Oliver wanted to
start or comment

01:43:10.280 --> 01:43:14.800
on something, or if you're not processing
it at the moment.

01:43:14.800 --> 01:43:16.320
Ah, okay, fine.

01:43:16.320 --> 01:43:19.920
Well, firstly, from my side.

01:43:20.800 --> 01:43:24.800
Well, it is true that as a historian I
have kept

01:43:24.800 --> 01:43:28.800
myself somewhat apart, or I try to keep
myself

01:43:28.800 --> 01:43:32.800
somewhat apart, from political
considerations,

01:43:32.800 --> 01:43:36.000
from impositions, if there are any, eh?

01:43:36.120 --> 01:43:41.960
Regarding the way of viewing the past,
its uses or abuses.

01:43:41.960 --> 01:43:45.640
I try not to talk about abuse, although
it probably exists, I don't want to deny

01:43:45.640 --> 01:43:47.480
it.

01:43:47.480 --> 01:43:48.880
Neither.

01:43:48.880 --> 01:43:52.880
And I try, at least not in my main line
of thought or my interest

01:43:52.880 --> 01:43:56.960
or concern—which I have—not in a
legitimate way. The.

01:43:57.280 --> 01:44:01.280
The idea of ​​questioning the origins of
the

01:44:01.280 --> 01:44:04.960
nation or the issue of demystifying
certain

01:44:04.960 --> 01:44:07.960
phenomena that are still present.

01:44:08.480 --> 01:44:12.480
Mind you, this demystification is
probably necessary, because

01:44:12.480 --> 01:44:16.800
evidently, and as I said before, these
myths have an operational force.

01:44:17.560 --> 01:44:21.560
These are myths that, although they have

01:44:21.560 --> 01:44:25.560
no basis in fact, condition us and
influence

01:44:25.560 --> 01:44:28.880
the way we look at the past.

01:44:30.640 --> 01:44:34.640
I don't want to, I don't want to give any
ideas either, but it is true

01:44:34.640 --> 01:44:38.640
that the influence of Isidore of Seville
throughout the entire

01:44:38.640 --> 01:44:42.880
medieval century, practically up to the
present day, is truly tremendous.

01:44:42.880 --> 01:44:48.600
But why do they find something to hold on
to there, huh?

01:44:48.600 --> 01:44:51.640
Because it is true that criticism is
possible.

01:44:51.640 --> 01:44:55.160
It is not true that Spain exists as a
political entity,

01:44:55.160 --> 01:44:58.160
much less could it be called a
nation-state.

01:44:58.240 --> 01:45:02.240
But well, nationalism always seeks
something,

01:45:02.240 --> 01:45:06.920
a myth, an origin, something that can be
a powerful tool.

01:45:07.480 --> 01:45:11.480
And in that sense, when he speaks of a
unity, when he speaks

01:45:11.480 --> 01:45:15.480
of a symbiosis between a people that is
already like a

01:45:15.480 --> 01:45:18.640
people, he already calls it Spanish, eh?

01:45:18.640 --> 01:45:23.560
And a territory that truly does not
correspond to the borders of Spain.

01:45:24.320 --> 01:45:28.320
Well, they cling to that, but it is true
that this varies

01:45:28.320 --> 01:45:32.320
over time, and in the case of Spanish
nationalism in the

01:45:32.320 --> 01:45:36.320
19th century, and even the 20th century,
we see that what

01:45:36.320 --> 01:45:39.560
is mainly claimed is the Third Council of
Toledo.

01:45:40.120 --> 01:45:44.120
Because what is of primary interest is
the Catholic religion as, as, as

01:45:44.120 --> 01:45:48.120
a foundational myth in many school
textbooks during the Franco regime.

01:45:49.000 --> 01:45:53.000
Although we often think that the Goths,
being the origin of the Spanish

01:45:53.000 --> 01:45:56.760
nation, and that the Goths have generally
been well treated during

01:45:56.760 --> 01:45:59.760
Francoism, especially in that first
Francoism.

01:46:00.400 --> 01:46:04.400
It is true that the Goths also generate
some cognitive dissonances

01:46:04.400 --> 01:46:08.400
because, among other things, let's not
forget that they were

01:46:08.400 --> 01:46:11.600
pagans, they were Arians, among other
issues.

01:46:11.600 --> 01:46:12.400
For.

01:46:12.400 --> 01:46:16.400
For those who want to defend Spanishness
or the origin of the Spanish

01:46:16.400 --> 01:46:19.560
nation in the Visigothic period, the
Visigoths themselves, eh, were the ones

01:46:19.560 --> 01:46:21.160
who

01:46:22.240 --> 01:46:24.720
eh with his

01:46:24.720 --> 01:46:28.480
Their lack of morality and their sins
caused the country and the nation to be

01:46:28.480 --> 01:46:30.400
lost.

01:46:30.400 --> 01:46:34.400
So, well, it's handled somewhat loosely
and used, as history

01:46:34.400 --> 01:46:38.000
has always been used, from a political
point of view in accordance with the

01:46:38.000 --> 01:46:39.800
interests.

01:46:40.360 --> 01:46:44.360
So, well, I don't know if Spain was born
as a

01:46:44.360 --> 01:46:50.320
cultural nation or as a political nation
in the 19th century.

01:46:50.320 --> 01:46:54.320
I obviously, from a political point of
view, mmm,

01:46:54.320 --> 01:46:59.200
I don't think so, but from a cultural
point of view, neither.

01:46:59.600 --> 01:47:03.600
I'm not very interested in getting into
that either, because I

01:47:03.600 --> 01:47:07.040
think that I, as a historian, can't
contribute much.

01:47:07.040 --> 01:47:09.520
I don't know if I'll be able to
contribute anything, or if this will be

01:47:09.520 --> 01:47:10.760
significant.

01:47:11.560 --> 01:47:14.040
I mean, because I have the.

01:47:14.040 --> 01:47:18.040
Probably a strange perception that as a
historian,

01:47:18.040 --> 01:47:23.000
although I have a certain platform, I
could have a certain megaphone, huh?

01:47:23.200 --> 01:47:25.880
My ideas will not be taken into account.

01:47:25.880 --> 01:47:28.840
So I don't know to what extent I think
this is already entering into another

01:47:28.840 --> 01:47:30.320
debate.

01:47:31.240 --> 01:47:35.240
I don't know if the fact that I can go
there to demystify, uh,

01:47:35.240 --> 01:47:39.240
issues like the Gothic myth, beyond the
time it would take

01:47:39.240 --> 01:47:43.240
me and beyond the studies, that would
completely change my

01:47:43.240 --> 01:47:47.040
line and my efforts if I would really
achieve something.

01:47:47.280 --> 01:47:51.280
I think there are also very, very
well-prepared people, and I think

01:47:51.280 --> 01:47:55.280
that also from the historical novel
itself, although it is true that

01:47:55.280 --> 01:47:59.280
the historical novel, from what I have
read, probably defends or is

01:47:59.280 --> 01:48:03.280
more in tune with that Gothic myth. It
would also be interesting if the

01:48:03.280 --> 01:48:07.280
historical novel were to work on it, as
Herculano has done, because

01:48:07.280 --> 01:48:11.280
Herculano is interesting, because it
captures that Gothic past,

01:48:11.280 --> 01:48:15.280
something that in Portugal anyone who
ventures to open a history book

01:48:15.280 --> 01:48:18.880
of Portugal will realize that the Gothic
period is an absolute silence.

01:48:19.600 --> 01:48:21.720
And it's interesting because Herculaneum
reflects the past.

01:48:21.720 --> 01:48:26.080
Godo probably makes it his own, he does
it as part of Portuguese history.

01:48:26.840 --> 01:48:29.560
Because let's not forget the past, the
Goths are also part of history.

01:48:29.560 --> 01:48:33.000
The history of Portugal, be it, if we
want to say it, what was not there, but

01:48:33.000 --> 01:48:34.720
is part of it.

01:48:34.960 --> 01:48:40.320
But Herculano, eh? He always defends
Portuguese particularities.

01:48:40.680 --> 01:48:44.080
He does not defend that Gothic myth in
the same way that the Spanish

01:48:44.080 --> 01:48:47.080
myth is defended from a nationalist point
of view.

01:48:47.080 --> 01:48:51.080
So, I think it would also be interesting
to consider the historical novel

01:48:51.080 --> 01:48:54.680
from the perspective of literature,
especially now that we are at a

01:48:54.680 --> 01:48:56.480
conference on historical novels.

01:48:58.000 --> 01:49:02.000
That past will also be addressed, not
from a nationalist point

01:49:02.000 --> 01:49:07.320
of view, if we didn't want to, but from a
broader, more flexible point of view.

01:49:07.560 --> 01:49:08.320
Don't know.

01:49:08.320 --> 01:49:12.320
And I think that would also be a way to
counteract what we might

01:49:12.320 --> 01:49:16.160
consider to be pressure, a way of
imposing a story, because

01:49:16.160 --> 01:49:19.160
in the end, politicians—maybe I'm wrong.

01:49:19.160 --> 01:49:21.760
I don't know what you think, but I
believe that politicians have the main

01:49:21.760 --> 01:49:23.080
platform.

01:49:23.080 --> 01:49:27.080
They are the ones who reach society the
most, and I think that

01:49:27.080 --> 01:49:30.080
other types of figures, such as teachers,

01:49:30.080 --> 01:49:33.080
researchers, and even novelists, reach
less.

01:49:33.640 --> 01:49:37.640
So, one way to counterbalance the current
predominance of

01:49:37.640 --> 01:49:41.640
the Gothic myth from a political point of
view, uh, well, it

01:49:41.640 --> 01:49:46.880
could be through the historical novel, I
don't know, it just occurs to me.

01:49:46.880 --> 01:49:47.320
Oh well.

01:49:49.960 --> 01:49:53.680
Well, uh, I don't know if there are any
other questions.

01:49:53.720 --> 01:49:55.640
I just want to clarify one thing.

01:49:55.640 --> 01:49:57.760
Francoism, huh?

01:49:57.760 --> 01:50:01.840
Remove the Goths from the map and replace
them with Christianity.

01:50:02.480 --> 01:50:05.480
That's what he does.

01:50:06.520 --> 01:50:08.200
They take him outside because it's more
in their interest.

01:50:08.200 --> 01:50:11.920
In fact, neuroticism as such in Francoism
is interrupted

01:50:11.920 --> 01:50:14.920
and shifts towards Christianity.

01:50:15.400 --> 01:50:19.400
Within the consideration

01:50:19.400 --> 01:50:25.160
of neuroticism there is, uh

01:50:26.200 --> 01:50:30.000
in uh mmm

01:50:31.800 --> 01:50:35.800
An idea that I suppose also leads us to
socialism, and

01:50:35.800 --> 01:50:41.640
it is the political appropriation of the
term and the use of the term, right?

01:50:42.400 --> 01:50:46.400
And that's what you've shown a little bit
of, and

01:50:46.400 --> 01:50:49.600
I think with this we can say goodbye.

01:50:49.680 --> 01:50:51.800
If you agree, we can leave it here.

01:50:51.800 --> 01:50:54.480
I don't know if you want to add anything,
and if not, well, we'll say goodbye and

01:50:54.480 --> 01:50:55.840
move on.

01:50:55.840 --> 01:50:57.200
Later in the afternoon.

01:50:57.200 --> 01:50:59.920
Yes, well, not only for Oliver, eh?

01:50:59.920 --> 01:51:04.080
I'd like to tell you, I don't know if
you've studied this or considered it.

01:51:04.480 --> 01:51:08.480
The idea of ​​crossing Sebastianism or
studying the echoes of

01:51:08.480 --> 01:51:12.480
Sebastianism by, for example, in the Holy
Roman Empire with

01:51:12.480 --> 01:51:16.480
Frederick Barbarossa, or taking it into
account with the Marble

01:51:16.480 --> 01:51:20.160
Emperor in Greece, in the Byzantine
Empire or in the case of Valencia, or in

01:51:20.160 --> 01:51:22.000
the case of.

01:51:24.120 --> 01:51:26.400
Not in good ways, but in many other
contexts?

01:51:26.400 --> 01:51:27.520
Of these sleeping kings.

01:51:27.520 --> 01:51:31.520
I don't know if it might be interesting
to do a kind of comparative literature

01:51:31.520 --> 01:51:34.720
or to evaluate them, in their contexts
and with their specific particularities,

01:51:34.720 --> 01:51:36.320
right?

01:51:36.880 --> 01:51:38.200
Huh? How does it reproduce?

01:51:38.200 --> 01:51:42.200
Because perhaps there can be some kind of
synergy and that synergy

01:51:42.200 --> 01:51:46.200
can also help to understand Sebastianism
itself, a phenomenon,

01:51:46.200 --> 01:51:50.200
I don't know if perhaps Sebastianism
itself has also been seeing

01:51:50.200 --> 01:51:54.120
throughout from the 16th century to the
present day other

01:51:54.120 --> 01:51:57.120
Sebastianisms out there other similar
phenomena.

01:51:57.120 --> 01:52:01.240
I don't know if he's considered it or not
yet, not yet.

01:52:01.240 --> 01:52:04.960
But thank you very much for the proposal.

01:52:05.560 --> 01:52:09.560
As I was saying, I would have liked to
delve much deeper into this

01:52:09.560 --> 01:52:14.200
whole topic and into Sebastianism, in
case there is any missing information.

01:52:14.280 --> 01:52:15.400
As I was saying, they are.

01:52:15.400 --> 01:52:20.080
According to this publication, about 40
texts.

01:52:20.080 --> 01:52:24.080
Not all of them will be literary, but I
suppose

01:52:24.080 --> 01:52:28.080
I'll find some more from that time, from
the

01:52:28.080 --> 01:52:31.600
first quarter of the 19th century.

01:52:32.080 --> 01:52:34.920
And you're absolutely right, too, huh?

01:52:35.920 --> 01:52:39.920
A comparison with, uh, with other

01:52:39.920 --> 01:52:44.200
sleeping kings, uh, mythical ones, uh?

01:52:45.240 --> 01:52:49.240
It would be necessary to think also
perhaps about

01:52:49.240 --> 01:52:53.240
just for the 19th century, the century
of, uh, the

01:52:53.240 --> 01:52:56.320
so-called century of nationalism.

01:52:56.320 --> 01:53:02.120
I don't know if there's a commune or a
surge of these myths there, and so on.

01:53:02.120 --> 01:53:06.120
But of course, you're right, a

01:53:06.120 --> 01:53:10.120
comparative chronology between

01:53:10.120 --> 01:53:14.120
different mythical kings of

01:53:14.120 --> 01:53:18.480
that style would be fascinating.

01:53:18.480 --> 01:53:22.480
Yes, yes, but when you say, let's

01:53:22.480 --> 01:53:26.920
see when I have the time to do this.

01:53:27.480 --> 01:53:28.280
Thank you so much.

01:53:28.280 --> 01:53:31.160
Okay, thanks, Oliver. Huh? Mmm.

01:53:31.160 --> 01:53:35.160
So you can see you're not the only one
who

01:53:35.160 --> 01:53:39.160
doesn't talk about novels, huh? I'll meet

01:53:39.160 --> 01:53:44.640
you at 4:00 PM for table two, "Thought in
the 19th Century," huh?

01:53:44.640 --> 01:53:50.400
And there we will reopen the classroom
and the connections.

01:53:50.440 --> 01:53:51.400
Thank you very much. Goodbye.